I would have said that this hits hardest those professional moderates who have grown rich and laden with honors by telling Western audiences what they want to hear, that is, feeding them soothing half-truths and outright lies about how Islam will soon reform and is or soon will be completely compatible with Western secular governance, but they won’t be affected at all. There is always a large audience for those who tell people what they want to hear, however false it may be.
“Pres. of Cairo University Calls for Revision, Interdisciplinarity in Religious Sciences, Sheikh of Al-Azhar University Responds: The Conflict between Islam, Modernity Is Made up by the West to Hold Us Back, Control How People View Islam,” MEMRI, January 28, 2020:
Professor Mohamed Othman Elkhosht, the President of Cairo University, said at a January 28, 2020 conference that was streamed live on Al-Azhar University’s YouTube channel that the religious sciences are in a state of stagnation, and he criticized the fact that critical analysis, scientific analysis, and methodologies from the humanities and social sciences are not used in this field. He said that Islamic scholarship has failed to enter a new era and called for interdisciplinarity. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, the Sheikh of Al-Azhar, responded that shari’a law, Islamic jurisprudence, and the Islamic heritage that Professor Elkhosht criticized were the same things that united a bunch of warring Arab tribes that “couldn’t tell right from left” and enabled them to expand as far as Al-Andalus and China. Sheikh Al-Tayyeb also said that Islamic heritage barely plays a role in people’s lives today and that the Arab and Muslim identity is meaningless. He further argued that Western leaders such as Trump and Netanyahu make all the decisions for the Arab world, that the conflict between modernity and the Islamic heritage is made up by the West in order to hold the Muslim world back, and that there is an “accursed and vicious machine” directing the way people view Islam.
Professor Mohamed Othman Elkhosht: “The religious sciences are in a state of stagnation. They are based on copying and reproduction.
[…]
“There is no critical analysis, no scientific analysis, and no use of methodologies from the humanities or social sciences. All the battles of the old days are being repeated. We still live in the times of the fitna of the Caliph Othman. The same old battles are present today. All the battles of ISIS are identical to the battles at the advent [of Islam], because we have been unable to enter a new era. So I call for the development of the religious sciences, and not for their revival, because such revival means to adopt the religious sciences of the past en bloc.
[…]
“Some people accuse Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal of being an extremist. I’m speaking here to very knowledgeable scholars. In most of the matters of jurisprudence that appear in the books of the Hanbali school, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal had three different opinions for each question.
[…]
“Where did we get this idea of ‘single opinion’ or ‘single truth’? Not from the Imams of the past… If I call for the establishment of new [religious] sciences, it doesn’t mean that I treat them with disrespect. I am calling to follow their example rather than their school of jurisprudence.
[…]
“In the framework of the renewal [of religious thought], we must depart from the closed circle [of religion] and open up to other circles of the humanities and social sciences. I also call for interdisciplinary studies rather than viewing religious sciences as a desert island. The jurisprudents and the scholars of shari’a, exegeses, and hadith have become desert islands. We are now in the age of interdisciplinarity.”
[…]
Sheikh Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: “Sir, the [Islamic] heritage that is being derided today… We deride it and make people afraid of it… This [Islamic] heritage took a bunch of Arab tribes that used to fight each other and that couldn’t tell right from left, and in the course of 80 years, enabled them to place one foot in Al-Andalus and another in China. That is because they focused on the strong points of this heritage. This heritage created an entire nation and coexisted with history. Tell me, sir – and you are our teacher in this field – how did the Islamic world advance before the French invasion [in 1798]? What set it in motion? Wasn’t it the shari’a and the [Islamic] heritage?
[…]
“Therefore, describing the [Islamic] heritage as something that bequeathed weakness and backwardness is unfair towards the [Islamic] heritage.
[…]
“Between me and you, do you think that [Islamic] heritage is implemented today? I do not think that our heritage is implemented today. I mean, we eat like the Europeans with a knife and fork using both our hands. We use European and American cars.
[…]
“We think like Europeans. Our school curricula are like theirs. Our policies follow the European-Western way. Islam – and not [Islamic] heritage, to be honest – is implemented maybe in matters of marriage, divorce, inheritance, and nothing else. So where is that… As a matter of fact, I do not see where… On the contrary, I was expecting people to say that the heritage is missing from our lives.”
Professor Mohamed Othman Elkhosht: “All of the heritage?”
Sheikh Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: “Our identity has been lost. Tell me, sir, what does our identity as Arabs and Muslims mean today? Nothing.”
Professor Mohamed Othman Elkhosht: “Nothing.”
Sheikh Ahmad Al-Tayyeb: “Nothing, today. Our matters are decided by others. I was utterly ashamed when I saw Trump with that [PM] of Israel… They are the ones who plan, say, decide, and solve our problems. There is no Arab or Muslim [among them]. That is where we should be fighting. I hope that you are aware of what is going on behind the scenes. This war between heritage and modernity is also made up in order to hold us back. If you asked someone… You must be from a village. Go ask anyone working on his plow if what ISIS are doing is a part of Islam. He will surely tell you that what they do is not a part of Islam. We, as scholars and clerics from Al-Azhar, have said it more than once, and held one, two, or ten conferences. We have said that Islam and the Muslims are innocent of this terrorism. Even so, we had to face constant accusations about the terrorist nature of Islam, and had to hold conferences to say that terrorism is not a part of Islam. There is an accursed and vicious machine that directs the way people think [of Islam].”
Wellington says
Just tried to post a long comment again and was denied. Don’t even know if this will post.
Wellington says
Seems I have a chance if I make a short statement (and even this is not guaranteed). A few paragraphs—forget it.
CogitoErgoSum says
Have you tried clearing the cache of your browser or using a different browser?
Frank Anderson says
Wellington, I have found when a longer thought is risked, it pays to compose on a word processor (ex. Word) and then copy and paste to Jihad Watch. That way if it is somehow lost, you still have your composition to try again. It seems to be related to the volume of comments hitting the system at one time.
Wellington says
Thanks, Frank, but until very recently I have virtually never had a problem with this. So, why now?
Frank Anderson says
W. When I wrote and conducted my official adopted mother’s funeral, because I would not allow a person who did not know her to do it, one of my major points was that there are some questions in this life that we do not get answered. Why you and I lose long, carefully thought and worded comments from time to time is another of those questions. I am living proof that ???? happens. But we are here and still have good things to do. Frank
James Lincoln says
Wellington,
If you haven’t tried this already, try logging in from a computer in your local library.
It would be a totally different – and hopefully well maintained – computer, Internet service provider, etc. And, while you’re at it, try different browsers.
If you using a PC, try using a Mac.
Also try posting directly from your smartphone.
Good luck, we all miss your posts…
mortimer says
Most libraries are closed, JL.
Wellington, install a new browser like firefox, etc. Ask a techie acquaintance or relative to help or pay a techie to install it.
Giacomo Latta says
It may have something about being the first out of the gate. You seem to be among the first to get your JW email. I never have this problem but then I don’t get my e-mail till the next day. (Not complaining.)
Steve Tanner says
And THERE you have it. All of their lives these people are taught a vile message, and the “leaders” who SHOULD be taking them into a world of Peace and Enlightenment are failing miserably. It’s possible to correct this, but it will take a generation, maybe two. Isolate the young from their brain washed teachers and leaders, and allow the young to catch up with the rest of the World. Failing that, just keep killing them – what else can we do??
tim gallagher says
Well, these knuckle dragging, moronic Muslim sheikhs and their brain dead followers can stay back in the 7th century, but we have to keep them, and their backward, primitive ideology, Islam, out of our countries, where people have actually made a hell of a lot of progress and become more civilised over the centuries. We have to keep their primitive, disgusting way of living out of our countries. Their outlook on life was backward and retarded even back in the 7th century, compared to much of the world, and these knuckle draggers still want to cling to its barbaric nonsense.
James Lincoln says
tim gallagher says,
“Their outlook on life was backward and retarded even back in the 7th century, compared to much of the world…”
Interestingly, I have never considered this angle.
Brilliant!
tim gallagher says
Thanks, James. I have often thought about how vicious and violent Islam was compared to other ideologies back in the time when Islam emerged, such as the sophisticated Greek philosophers (who had pretty peaceful outlooks), way before Islam, but, as a Christian myself, I have often thought how peaceful the Christian outlook (centuries before islam) is compared the bloodthirsty, vicious ideology called Islam. I wonder why Islam, or maybe it is to do with the Arabs, was such a loathsome and violent ideology, and was way behind the outlook of so many people even back in the 7th century. So, to me, Islam is just an appalling, incredibly evil ideology, and always has been and was always way behind the way more civilised people thought and acted. The idea that this knuckle dragger of a sheikh thinks that, in the 21st century, Islam’s barbarism is the best way to live staggers me, although I guess they have this bullshit attitude that Islam is absolute perfection and can’t be changed in any way. Keep them away from us is all I can say. Their view on every aspect of life is so primitive and completely uncivilised.
mortimer says
The Greco-Roman world lost most of its books, all of its paper and most of its technology when the backward Arabs invaded, burned and wrecked almost everything and killed or enslaved the knowledgeable people. The Muslim Arabs also ended trade and commerce and travel on the Mediterranean.
Islam caused the Dark Ages in Europe.
tim gallagher says
Thanks for the information, Mortimer. I wasn’t sure about the destruction of the Greco-Roman world, although I have certainly heard that there were civilised Christian societies in Egypt and other regions that were destroyed and dragged back into barbarism by the Muslim knuckle draggers. Islam has had such an appalling effect on human life in so many areas of the world. And this sheikh wants this backward system to stay the same as it has always been (ie back in the 7th century). What really disturbs me is that islam might actually win the 1400 year long war because of the way our countries let Muslims in and then they breed like rabbits. Barbaric islam might win in the long run. What a horrendous thought.
Frank Anderson says
T.G., Mark Gabriel, Ph.D was an instructor in Islamic history at Cairo, Egypt. He learned the koran word for word before he was 12. He converted out of islam after making the connection (paraphrased-not his exact words) If islam was such a great deal why were 4 million Egyptians killed bringing it to Egypt? The Unfinished Battle, page 52. There are many great books by respected and competent authors. Gabriel is notable to me for his insight leading to his exit from islam. I suggest that his book should be one of many to be read for the best individual understanding of islam and its danger to us.
Various estimates of Islamic killing appear here-from 250 million to 1 milliard/billion, depending on who is counting and what regions are considered. That is between 1 and 4 human beings killed every 3 minutes every day for 1400 years.
tim gallagher says
Thanks for the information, Frank. I will take a look at Mark Gabriel. I’m always somewhat encouraged by the people who pack up and leave the rotting carcass of barbaric Islam behind. I can add Gabriel to the list of other ex-Muslims that I admire greatly. So much evil Islam has done in this world for so long. What amazes me is that, despite all the murderous evil Islam has carried out, there are still so many people who believe that Islam deserves respect. This aspect of islam, that it has carried out so much slaughter, rape, etc, for so long and still manages to have so many people fooled into thinking it actually deserves respect, has to be just about the biggest confidence trick ever in the mankind’s history. Islam deserves about as much respect as Nazism does.
Frank Anderson says
T.G., I think Islam’s success at confusion and deception of the non-muslim world is on par with the observation (origin unknown to me) that the Devil’s greatest success is convincing people he does not exist. We do not have to fight something that does not exist. The only conclusion I can draw is that we would rather be slaughtered while being lazy instead of living as diligent.
tim gallagher says
I agree with your comment, Frank. I am amazed that so many people haven’t woken up to Islam’s evil nature by now. The evidence is there, so it must be laziness. That quote about the Devil’s greatest trick being convincing people that he doesn’t exist is a clever one and I have a vague memory that it comes from the movie “The Usual Suspects”, although I suspect it was probably something that some wit thought of much earlier. I’m pretty sure that that is where I heard the quote and I hadn’t heard it before that..
Emilie Green says
We, as scholars and clerics from Al-Azhar, have said it more than once, and held one, two, or ten conferences. We have said that Islam and the Muslims are innocent of this terrorism. Even so, we had to face constant accusations about the terrorist nature of Islam, and had to hold conferences to say that terrorism is not a part of Islam. There is an accursed and vicious machine that directs the way people think [of Islam].”
—–
Yes, and that “machine” of which you speak has a name. It’s name is your Qur’an.
Alex says
Exactly right
mortimer says
Not ‘exactly’. It’s more complicated. There are actually five or six ‘machines’ that dictate what authentic Islam is: The Islamic Trilogy (Koran, Sira, hadiths), the canonical commentaries (tafsirs), the ‘Consensus of Islam’, the manuals of Sharia law.
Islam is whatever Mohammed says it is. Mohammed is found in the Sunnan (Sira and hadiths).
Rob says
Isn’t there an internal illogicality in the title statement? ‘Held back’ from what? Modernising perhaps?
mortimer says
Al-Tayyeb speaks from two sides of his mouth. In 2015, he actually approved the religious scholarship of ISIS, and refused to denounce them as un-Islamic?
Here, he implies that ISIS was not real Islam.
Which is it?
– Sheikh Adel al-Kalbani (former imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca), has said that the Islamic State (IS) group follows the same brand of Islam as officially espoused by Saudi Arabia.
“We follow the same thought [as IS] but apply it in a refined way,” he said. “They draw their ideas from what is written in our own books, from our own principles.”
The cleric said that “we do not criticise the thought on which it (IS) is based”.
Sheikh Adel al-Kalbani has said that the Islamic State is a “true product of Salafism”.
FYI says
The “scholars” of islam?What Scholars?
Can the brains of islam,its “wise” men, explain the following?
Why is the Golden Rule missing in islam if it is in the Bible{Matthew 7 :12},especially since allah claims to be the author of the Bible {and confirms the Bible,Torah and Gospel,as True{koran 3:3}at the time the koran was written down}
How did allah the CHAMPION DECEIVER k3:54 miss this?
What on earth is MARY {Yes that’s right,MARY}doing in the Christian Trinity koran 5:116?Christians don’t believe that:that is an EPIC THEOLOGY fail on the part of the ARAB author of the “perfect” koran {along with koran 4:171:Christians don’t worship 3 gods.The Trinity is MONOTHEISTIC not polytheistic}What sort of god gets Theology wrong?Even atheists know Christians don’t worship 3 gods and MARY isn’t in the Trinity.
If the koran has errors in it that means it is IMPERFECT which means allah’s word is IMPERFECT:look at allah’s own criterion of koran 4:82.Allah says that ANY error in the koran proves it to be FALSE.Did the “scholars” of islam MISS all the mistakes in the koran
{ like koran 5:46 “WE bestowed the Gospel on Jesus” but Jesus never had the Gospel as it came AFTER,The Jews say “Ezra is the son of allah” koran 9:30,No Jews believe in any such person..}
A book that has errors in it cannot be said to be perfect.
The koran is FULL OF ERRORS.
If the koran has errors in it that means that in its imperfection,it cannot come from God {see koran 4:82 allah’s criterion} but from “other than allah”: it was clearly written by Arabs pretending to be the Bibilcal God.
Pop quiz for islamic “scholars”
1 name the 4 evangelists
Matthew,Mark,Luke and……1}John 2}Abdool 3}Abdoool 4}muhammed{pbuh}
2 name the 4 Beatles
John,Paul,George and…1}Ringo 2}islam 3}muhammed 4}ayatollah khomeni
3name the 3 aspects of the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity
Father,Son and..1}Holy Spirit 2}MARY 3}muhammed{isaiah 42?}
Frank Anderson says
FYI, for what little my impressions may be worth: One of the great values of reading Bill Warner’s Trilogy, actually 4 books because the Simple Koran became the Abridged Koran, is seeing how “final” revelations were changed along the way. I think one of the accomplishments of Judaism is that in 3700 years, it has changed, especially in the last 2,000. I was surprised when visiting to see how the unfortunate picture of Judaism that appears in the New Testament contained errors from the time written, but did not reflect at all the subsequent development in thought taking place between then and now. But Christians and Jews generally do not stop thinking and learning. Some take longer than others, but never frozen. Islam has problems that cannot stand examination. In order for it to continue, it must not be questioned.
CogitoErgoSum says
Yes, it’s impossible to change something once you declare it to be perfect without admitting that it really was not perfect.
James Lincoln says
C.E.S.,
Exactly!
Alex says
So basically, it is about the false pride that doesn’t allow people to admit their mistake. Unfortunately, the whole islamic identity is based on it. To admit the mistake, means to destroy this identity. They must be aware of it, that is one of the reasons why they are so furious towards us. They simply project this fury on us, unable to admit’ that the problem is on their side.
James Lincoln says
Alex says,
“So basically, it is about the false pride that doesn’t allow people to admit their mistake…”
Yes, FALSE PRIDE indeed!
mortimer says
Yes, CES. Islamic teachings are ‘perfect, complete and eternal’ and so reform is contradictory.
FYI says
Absolutely True.
The LAW has NEVER changed..
1]First Chief Commandment
“LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart,your soul and your strength”
Deuteronomy 6:4-9
{The Shema Israel comes from Deut 6:4}
2]Second Chief Commandment
“LOVE your neighbor as you love yourself”
Leviticus 19:18
3]The Exodus chpt 20 :1-17 the Decalogue
These official laws exist in both Judaism AND Christianity but note how in islam they are contradicted or warped:allah equivocates.
allah gives permission to violate them,permission to HATE via the insidious islamic Doctrine of al walaa wal baraa.
To the extent that religiously observant Jews and Christians have the SAME official Laws they are really in a similar Biblical fold.
Note too that the Golden Rule is explained in Matthew 7 v 12 as being the MEANING of the Law of Moses and the prophets.
This is in both Judaism AND Christianity but missing in islam.
FYI says
islamic “scholarship” …….centuries upon centuries…of islamic “scholarship”
FAILED to notice that the Golden Rule is missing in islam{Matthew 7 v 12}which means allah does not know the MEANING of “the law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets”
FAILED to notice that the teachings of the koran do not conform to the Exodus chpt 20 Decalogue{allah forgot to include a formal listing of these essential rules in his “perfect” book:How convenient for a god who admits to being a champion at deceiving people koran 3;54}allah permits murder k2:191,stealing koran 48:20 etc
MISSED the 2 CHIEF commandments of God{#1 Deut 6:4-9,# 2 Lev19:18} defined by Jesus Christ as “The WHOLE LAW of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two laws”{Matthew 22 v 37-40}
Since allah gives permission to violate the Exodus 20 laws then Law #1{LOVE GOD} cannot be satisfied in islam.
Since allah tells his muslims NOT to “love thy neighbor”{koran 5:51,al walaa wal baraa Doctrine and the classification of non-muslims as the “WORST of created beings” koran 98:6 Law #2 {LOVE others} cannot be satisfied in islam
How did allah completely miss “The WHOLE LAW of Moses and the teachings of the prophets”?Where in islam are the Exodus 20 laws and the 2 chief commandments obeyed?Nowhere.
FORGOT about the Spirit of God’s Wisdom{the Holy Spirit} given at the Time of Jesus to give humanity the understanding of God{and the source of all prophecy and scripture}.
It seems allah doesn’t want muslims to know about that{koran 4:171}Note that the absence of the Holy Spirit means muhammed could not have had access to the Gift of Prophecy{which comes from the Holy Spirit..}as all TRUE prophets would have.
Take a moment if you are an islamic “scholar” and follow allah’s advice in koran 10:94 to consult those who… know the Bible{“The scripture that was before thee”}
Look at the Exodus 20 laws and explain why allah gives freedom to break them.
Where are the 2 chief commandments of God in islam?
Why is the Golden Rule missing?
How did allah MISS “the Meaning of the Law of Moses and of the prophets”?
Since all these things are found in ANY Bible written at the time the koran was written down and since allah confirms the Bible as TRUE k3:3 explain WHY all these things are missing in the koran?
{Fiddling the Arabic won’t work….}
mhw says
the quran dances around the golden rule, e.g. 41:34-36 which I think is good enough for a lot of muslims
however, the golden rule is, I think, overvalued; it sometimes gives no guidance or confusing guidance
example, say, you know that Smith is allegic to peanuts; Smith asks you to buy him a Snickers bar — the golden rule says you buy it but in reality you wouldn’t do it
Carol the 1st says
Incorrect! The Golden Rule says to “do unto others what you would have them do unto you”. It’s an abstract statement and it doesn’t mean things like e.g. go out and feel up that girl because that’s what you’d want her to do unto you!
Thinking more abstractly, you would want the wisest course of action to be bestowed upon you despite your faults, bad choices, and limitations – and of course you’d want the same for those you TRULY “cared” about. And to think I skipped Philosophy 101!
Frank Anderson says
Carol, one of many inspiring discussions I have heard covers several “translations” of the Golden Rule.
The most frequent is “. . . as you would HAVE them. . .” which I think means expect others to obey the same rules as we obey. A synonym in my reading for the word “have” is “require” or “compel”.
Another reading comes to a negative statement: “Don’t do unto others that which you would not WANT done unto you.” (from a story about a Rabbinical student asking 2 Rabbis about the meaning of the Torah)
A third converts the negative into a positive: “Do unto others as you would WANT (or WISH) them to do unto you.”
The difference between the statements is that we would demand or require less than we would ask or wish for as our measure. There are times when we can and should do better than the minimum needed to maintain social harmony. If the goal is to increase social harmony, I think when reasonable and possible, going beyond the minimum promotes that goal.
mortimer says
Professor Mohamed Othman Elkhosht is asking for al-Tayyeb to take off the straight-jacket of the Islamic consensus and al-Tayyed said, ‘NO’.
This is a perfect example of the war that al-Tayyed says does not exist.
Professor Mohamed Othman Elkhosht identified the problem in education under Islamic restrictions: “The religious sciences are in a state of stagnation. They are based on copying and reproduction.’
The source of this stagnation is then exposed (inadvertently by the leader of the Islamic world, Sheikh Ahmad Al-Tayyeb) … quote: “War between heritage and modernity made up to hold us back” …
Excuse me! Holding the Arabs back from what? They are being held back from being MODERN by Al-Tayyeb!
Modern human rights codes actually HOLD BACK Muslims from imposing discriminatory Sharia law on the world, it would seem. Full Sharia law is not enforceable even in Muslim countries. No Muslim country today for instance countenances SLAVERY. Slavery takes up a HUGE part of Sharia law manuals.
In fact, it is indisputable that Islam is ‘HOLDING BACK’ the provision of full human rights and civil liberties to all people and they are doing so on the basis of RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION directed against non-Muslims.
The grand imam of Al Azhar University (al-Tayyeb) is the de facto Islamic ‘pope’. He cannot be accused of speaking for himself only or being uninformed about Islam.
mortimer says
Tens of thousands of Muslims are leaving Islam every and become ‘former Muslims’. Al-Tayyeb is aware of the trend. There may be several apostates within his extended family. He can do nothing to stop it … even in his backyard.
So Grand Imam al-Tayyed blames Jews and Christians for slandering Islam and misrepresenting it. Does he really think they are the only ones?
Many Arabs … Egyptians … are now doing that, denouncing Islam, after leaving Islam. Ex-Muslims are now analyzing Islam and representing it CORRECTLY as a backward Death Cult that can never be reformed.
Since Islam cannot be reformed (al-Tayyed says it doesn’t ‘need’ to be reformed), those former Muslims abandoned Islam entirely.
This debate is extraordinary. Al-Tayyeb is actually debating the ‘reformist’ Muslim president of Al Azhar! WOW! Times are changing.
The collapse of Islam is taking place before our eyes.
Frank Anderson says
Mortimer, with courtesy and respect, Please share how you arrive at the estimate of those leaving islam, and how it compares to those joining.
At more or less 1.5 milliard/billion, and growing far faster than other demographic groups in numbers from births both inside and outside marriage, I have trouble seeing a lot of hope even if the number converting out is 10,000 a day (3.65 million per year). At 10,000 an hour we might have reason to celebrate.
Another demographic group is having so few children and so many are converting out that if continued the group will shrink to insignificance in the next hundred years or so even if external forces do nothing.
What are your thoughts?
mortimer says
Mullahs who study this have come up with the figure that up to five million African Muslims drop out every year. American Imam Luqman Ahmad said that seven out of ten converts leave Islam within less than two years and few converts actually “begin to practice Islam in any appreciable way other than take their shahaadah (declaration of conversion), and you don’t see anywhere near those numbers reflected in the nation’s masaajid.”
https://imamluqman.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/seven-out-of-every-ten-converts-leave-islam-by-imam-luqman-ahmad/
PEW research has identified that 35% of Muslims are non-practicing. They are silent apostates.
If millions leave Islam every year, that’s 10, 000 leaving Islam every day. I find that credible.
You have personally met non-practicing Muslims, I suspect. They are the tip of the iceberg. The other dropouts remain silent to avoid disharmony in the family.
Frank Anderson says
Mortimer, that supports your contention well. Thank you. While we can hope that converts OUT will help more to leave, that cannot be our only plan.
Carol the 1st says
I watched a refreshing and curious interview today with Dave Rubin and a muslim woman seeking political office who considers herself an American first (and makes no show of whatever she feels about the odd religion she still hasn’t cast aside). This woman absolutely hates CAIR/MB and says many in the mid-east reject it and there’s been a real change. She says Ilhan Omar with her scandals has also been a huge embarrassment to the Somalian community and many tell her so. She says the Muslim Brotherhood is tutoring hundreds of these characters like Omar and she wants to win Minnesota away from her and stick up for America.
As a Western person anyone carrying that Islamic baggage has a big question mark over their head, but if countries feel it necessary to drag out this excruciating tolerance thing then she does looks like someone who could lift and somewhat modernize Islam’s image (first one?) A straight shooter by name of Dalia al-Aqidi.
She’s interesting to watch and consider (hopefully a new and improved muslim?):
Muslim Exposing The Danger of Ilhan Omar & CAIR’s Agenda | Dalia al-Aqidi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9zviQWHqOg
moqifen says
The fact is Muslims don’t worship any God – they worship Mohammed. When your God was an illiterate, rapist, paedophile, thief with no morals and just a brutish intelligence based on personal gain then you’ve got no chance of joining the 21st century. The fact that most male muslims are called mohammed or it’s derivates (read earlier about someone called mohammed mahmoud) shows the depth of this worship of him.
Westman says
Allah never made a personal appearance and the world has only Muhammad’s word for everything in the Quran. Only his despotic, murdering, immoral life was documented by others. Now the leaders of Islam can only decry that they, in fact, do not follow the bad example of Muhammad which is so well documented. Lying and Doublethink is the only course open to Islam in the modern world, a world that will never accept Islam as a valid political system.
Islam has proven itself to be an incompetent in the intellectual world, while it now fails in its only past competence of warfare. Science has left it in the sand.
The term “Religious Sciences” is perhaps the most laughable phrase to ever come from Al-Azhar. There is absolutely nothing scientific about Islam and it smacks of the kind of useless coursework that has left so many college graduates in great debt with only a job driving for Uber. Islam is fast running out of exploitable nations and its brightest people are running away to non-Islamic nations for real opportunities.
mortimer says
Westman is correct. Most Muslims do not wish to follow Mohammed’s immoral example.
Carol the 1st says
Well they shouldn’t hang onto that crock then. It inspires too much non-ending psychopathic TROUBLE. You can’t worship God and Mammon and with no politics they would surely feel absolutely set adrift in the world and yet many are still biased against our type of world or what they think it is and can’t ‘switch over’ even if they could (which means they sure wouldn’t look like that display of child groomers).
If Islam gives up the hate and politics then what’s left? Raymond Ibrahim describes how Saudi Arabia is bragging they haven’t been harmed by COVID-19 because they are truer and do better Wudu than the Shias (no mention of barely having their gates open now). It seems that Moe once went to prayer and then took a dump and when he returned to dine he was asked if he wanted to wash. He replied “Why? Am I going to prayer?” This shining example then sat down and had his dinner.
Stories like this inspire real fear of germs and viruses. We know the fecal count is high in restaurants where muslims work. Hopefully they’re not so backward they follow this shining example. And I’ll bet no one dares check their bathroom habits for fear of offending. Without the glue of “politics” and arranged lives, Islam has only totally unimpressive or laughable things like this to offer.
mortimer says
Moqifen is on the right track … namely, that Muslims are more respectful towards Mohammed than towards Allah. Allah is an unknowable man behind the curtain who never speaks outside the Koran.
Anjuli Pandavar says
“Modernity Is made up by the West to hold us back.”
“Oh, really? Can you give us an example?”
“I mean. We eat like Europeans with a knife and fork, and use both our hands.”
“I see.”
manalive says
Sounds like the complaints from these Islamic leaders can be addressed by calling together all imams to teach them what Islam is and is not!