Turkish President and would-be caliph Recep Tayyip Erdogan wants to turn the Hagia Sophia, now a museum in Istanbul, back into a mosque. But how did the Hagia Sophia become a mosque in the first place?
Today is the anniversary of an awesome tragedy. On May 29, 1453, Constantinople, once the greatest city in the Christian world, finally fell to the warriors of jihad, after they had tried to conquer it for seven hundred years. In my new book The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS, I recount what happened then. Muslims raided monasteries and convents, emptying them of their inhabitants, and plundered private houses. They entered the Hagia Sophia, which for nearly a thousand years had been the grandest church in Christendom. The faithful had gathered within its hallowed walls to pray during the city’s last agony. The Muslims killed the elderly and weak and led the rest off into slavery.
The Byzantine scholar Bessarion wrote to the Doge of Venice in July 1453, saying that Constantinople had been
…sacked by the most inhuman barbarians and the most savage enemies of the Christian faith, by the fiercest of wild beasts. The public treasure has been consumed, private wealth has been destroyed, the temples have been stripped of gold, silver, jewels, the relics of the saints, and other most precious ornaments. Men have been butchered like cattle, women abducted, virgins ravished, and children snatched from the arms of their parents.
When the slaughter and pillage was finished, Mehmet II ordered an Islamic scholar to mount the high pulpit of the Hagia Sophia and declare that there was no God but Allah, and Muhammad was his prophet. The magnificent old church was turned into a mosque; hundreds of other churches in Constantinople and elsewhere suffered the same fate. Millions of Christians joined the ranks of the dhimmis; others were enslaved, and many were killed.
Click here to order The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS, the only comprehensive one-volume history of jihad in the English language, including not just the jihad in Europe but in India, Africa and elsewhere, drawing primarily on accounts of eyewitnesses and contemporary chroniclers. Arm yourself with the truth against the prevailing disinformation. Order here now.
ELI says
” Byzantine scholar Bessarion wrote to the Doge of Venice in July 1453, saying that Constantinople had been
…sacked by the most inhuman barbarians and the most savage enemies of the Christian faith, by the fiercest of wild beasts. The public treasure has been consumed, private wealth has been destroyed, the temples have been stripped of gold, silver, jewels, the relics of the saints, and other most precious ornaments. Men have been butchered like cattle, women abducted, virgins ravished, and children snatched from the arms of their parents.”
It’s hard to imagine that conquering cities is ever a bloodless affair but maybe you should warn your impressionable readers about the use of hyperbole in such texts? As an example, (one that you can related to), the taking of Jerusalem by the crusading armies was described thusly:
” in the Temple and porch of Solomon men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins.”
CogitoErgoSum says
There would not have been any blood shed at all in either of the two events if it had not been for Islam encouraging its followers to fight, to rape, to kill and to take what belongs to others.
ELI says
Another empire would have risen had challenged Bizantine or infighting would have led to more rape and kill.
Example – The siege and sack of Constantinople in April 1204 committed by…..fellow Christians
It’s the unfortunately reality of history. Sorry if this is news to you.
Gyomza says
But Islam is supposed to be a religion of peace
Sven Lindeberg says
No Sir – THAT disaster fuelled by Christian neighbours, is a VERY well-known fact, Nobody ignores THAT tragical event – at least if the person You ask has the slightest historical knowledge of the past.
Anecdote: American University dialogue:
Professor: We will now talk about the second world war.
A Student: Eh – so there has been a FIRST world war ????
Sun says
Yes, the spirit of the Middle Ages was mostly dark and cruel.
Luckily, mankind has developed since and we are all blessed to have a more human and peaceful life today. Over the centuries, even the world’s major religions learned to be more tolerant and do not fight each other anymore – all but one, unfortunately.
Sun says
Yes, the Middle Ages were a dark and cruel.
Luckily, mankind has developed since and we are all blessed to have a more human and peaceful life today. Over the centuries, even the world’s major religions learned to be more tolerant and do not fight each other anymore – all but one, unfortunately.
gravenimage says
Of course, ELI’s claim that everyone is as bad as ravening Muslims raping, pillaging, and mass-slaughtering so we should not mind is absolute claptrap.
Is he also claiming that democracy is as bad as fascism? It would not surprise…
Gray says
Ah yes, the good old tu quoque argument, much loved by Islamists and their supporters and admirers. You people in the West can’t criticise anything that Muslims have done over the years, because the Christian Church has committed worse far atrocities over the years …( an oblique reference to the Crusades invariably follows!). Suddenly the discussion becomes one about the evil that Christians have allegedly committed over the centuries, and Islam is conveniently forgotten. Three quick points, if I may. Point One: as Robert makes so very clear in his magisterium tome – I’ve read his ‘History of Jihad’ from cover to cover three times already, and I also have ‘The Palestinian Delusion’ on order – Islam was spread by blood and conquest from its very inception. ‘The Perfect Man’ was, and is, the template for all his followers, for all time. Point Two: Christianity (with very rare exceptions) never needed to rely on conquest and subjugation, as Islam did (and does). Christianity relied rather on moral persuasion and the simple truth of its message, but freedom of individual choice lies at the heart of the Christian message. Accept it or reject it. Your choice. Point Three: Christians who rob, steal, murder and rape are breaking the core principles of their Christian Faith. Au contraire, Muslims who rob, steal, murder and rape are carrying out their Prophet’s direct instructions.
gravenimage says
+1
ELI says
“Ah yes, the good old tu quoque argument, much loved by Islamists and their supporters and admirers. You people in the West can’t criticise anything that Muslims have done over the years, because the Christian Church has committed worse far atrocities over the years ”
Of course you can criticise, I am simply pointing out that there;s nothing unique about this event.
“Islam was spread by blood and conquest from its very inception. ‘The Perfect Man’ was, and is, the template for all his followers, for all time. Point Two: Christianity (with very rare exceptions) never needed to rely on conquest and subjugation, as Islam did (and does).”
I think that Islam definitely spread by conquest. So what? that is how the Roman and British Empires spread and we don’t think that’s necessarily evil. I would also make a distinction between Islam as a political system and the religion. In the early conquest, the point was not always to convert people (for financial reasons it even made sense for people to remain dhimmis) but conquer territory and expand the empire.
“Christians who rob, steal, murder and rape are breaking the core principles of their Christian Faith. Au contraire, Muslims who rob, steal, murder and rape are carrying out their Prophet’s direct instructio”
I agree to a point that Christians who rape or steal are breaking the core principles but then there are some definitely gray areas. Do we consider Christian soldiers to be breaking with the core principles of the Christian faith?
LB says
Roman and British empires spread via warfare? And here I was thinking all this time that it was through peaceful negotiation that all those barbarian tribes willingly let themselves be annexed…. No shit Sherlock! A European country waged war once, therefore everything that muslims ever did is justified. Case closed!
What a brainlet you are. First of all, the expansion of Roman Empire was based on desire for territory and natural resources (slaves included), not to spread the word of Jupiter to infidels. Even mentioning the Romans is strawmanning because they were pagans whose moral values of what’s right and wrong were nearly completely opposite from Christian values.
As for the Christians, they indeed waged war, but in 99% of the cases (all except the Crusades, which were DEFENSIVE in nature, not offensive) they waged war against other Christians, and their motivation for war was based solely on territory and royal influence (at worst you can accuse Medieval Christian kings of being greedy). And it’s not like you could just declare a war just because you felt like it. RCC controlled everything and if you didn’t have a strong enough “casus belli” (a rightful reason) you faced a risk of getting excommunicated, making you free game for other Christians to declare a war on you. There was indeed plenty of corruption and underhanded tactics throughout Medieval Europe’s history, and atrocities did happen from time to time (such is war), but to say that there weren’t any rules of warfare and that you could just rape, slaughter, pillage and enslave as you liked would be disingenuous at best. Not to mention that slavery was BANNED throughout entire Christian world since it first took hold in Europe, whereas muslims still practice slavery to this day.
In complete contrast to Christians, the muslims weren’t bound by any rules or morals. They only had one thing in mind and one thing only: KILL AND ENSLAVE ALL INFIDELS!!! Doesn’t matter how you do it, just do it by any means necessary. Also, muslims waged war EXCLUSIVELY against non-muslims, which means the muslims’ motivations for waging war was based ENTIRELY ON RELIGION! And once they’ve conquered the infidels, they were left to the mercy of muslims’ to do as they pleased. Massacre them, rape them, play baseball with unborn infants freshly carved out of their mothers wombs as balls and scimitars as bats (this did happen, not making it up), doesn’t matter in the slightest; on the contrary — the more you brutalize them, the more you please allah and the greater the chance of securing your way to muslim heaven where 72 virgins await for you in an eternal fornicating paradise.
But please, do continue to sit there and argue in muslims’ favor as you know nothing what it feels like being under their rule. My people once were and all the atrocities muslim Ottomans committed will never be forgotten nor forgiven.
The Truth says
Yep, you make so much sense. Now I can see why everyone is trying to migrate from the constant violence in western countries to the peace of islamic countries. (sarcasm off).
Gray says
It’s interesting that so many of my criticisms of Islam appear to have now been acknowledged and confirmed, courtesy of your JW contributor. So now I’m being told that there’s nothing at all wrong with Tu Quoque, and there’s also nothing wrong with Islam spreading itself by blood and conquest, because that was how the Roman and British Empires spread? Really? That’s Tu Quoque writ large, surely? So Go Tu Quoque!!! You’re the flavour du jour! And it’s also interesting that my statement that ‘Muslims who rob, steal, murder and rape are carrying out their Prophet’s direct instructions’ has not been directly challenged. I already knew the truth of that proposition, of course. Nice to have it confirmed. Now someone just has to tell that fundamental reality to the ‘Islam is the religion of Peace’ brigade. But I was astounded to be told now that there is a distinction between Islam as a political system and a religion. Surely the whole point of Islam is that there is no barrier between Church and State, and the Islamic Theocracy and the Political System are one? So world domination is Islam’s express and avowed aim? I knew that too. Pity many of the West’s leaders have so much trouble realizing that.
gravenimage says
The claim that there was nothing unique about the conquest of Christendom’s greatest city–that Islam had been working to conquer *for seven hundred years*–is utterly false.
ELI is just hoping to soften us up so that we will not consider it anything unique if Muslims go on to conquer Paris and New York.
Francis Weber says
The perfect man, NOT, defective DNA.
Muhammad was WHITE!
http://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/Reference/Hadith-2340/
Muhammad was a dwarf and fat!
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/42/154
Brian Hoff says
When the Muslim conquect the holy land they recest Christian’s. In fact the Christian want Muslim rule as the church in the east was divide into icon workship and antiicon workship. The government was antiicon while the local Christian where icon follower. The Muslim didnot allow both party to killed each other than both sect where allow to workship in peace.
gravenimage says
Ah, yes–of course the “filthy Infidels” all wanted to be conquered by Muslims–this is, actually, what all Muslims claim.
Note that “Brian Hoff”–really, “DefenderofIslam”–has said that Western women will all welcome being enslaved by Muslim invaders.
Myron J. Poltroonian says
As a very dear friend and my late Fienceé used to say: “Well, there is that”.
gravenimage says
There are numerous accounts of the slaughter at Hagia Sophia. Will ELI say what they supposedly got wrong? Of course not…
ELI says
I can look into it, why not? are you interested in having a serious conversation about this?
By the way, the point is hyperbole was used in describing such accounts. Do you agree that this can take place?
gravenimage says
Odd that this ‘hyperbole’ was all along exactly the same lines, and by the conquerors as well as the conquered.
And what does ELI mean by a serious conversation? When has he ever been interested in anything here save whitewashing the horrors of Islam?
Tony Naim says
At the time the crusaders entered Jerusalem, it had been a thousand years since the Temple of Solomon had been destroyed by the Romans, specifically Nero , who burnt Rome and blamed it on Christians. Moreover, to disproof your claim, Muslim troops under Omar seized the remains of the Temple site in 739AD to build a mosque, still present today.
So when the crusaders came , there was NO Temple, instead , there was and still is , a Mosque! Thus, it may be more accurate to say, in the Mosque, men rode in blood up to their knees. Maybe in retaliation for the tens of thousands of Christian European pilgrims killed by the Muslim Turks on their way to Jerusalem
ELI says
“Thus, it may be more accurate to say, in the Mosque, men rode in blood up to their knees. Maybe in retaliation for the tens of thousands of Christian European pilgrims killed by the Muslim Turks on their way to Jerusalem”
Maybe but then again every conqueror has an excuse for why they commit mass murder. Anyways the point is that the blood up to their knees is likely hyperbole.
John Aggelakos (@JohnAggelakos) says
For your information, Jerusalem was conquered by Islamic armies in the year 636AD. The first crusade was in the year 1096AD and its purpose was to Liberate Jerusalem and the Levant region from the Islamic invaders. The first Crusade was a liberation war.
mortimer says
On Saturday, November 16, 1912, Tsar Ferdinand ordered the attack on Constantinople which was 20 miles away, and his second-in-command, Mihail Savov, assured reporters: “Gentlemen, we shall be in Constantinople in eight days.” The king had prepared a large white cross to be place upon Saint Sophia’s.
If the Bulgarians had captured Constantinople, many ensuding problems with Turkey would have been avoided and the second most important church in Christendom would be a church today.
owensgate says
This is the DIRECT RESULT of the Europeans in 1821, for not supporting Greece in kicking out the Turks. Had they let Greece finish the job by throwing the Turks out of Europe, and back across the Bosporus, where they belong. So much for not wanting the Greeks and Turks facing off across the strait, endangering “commerce”. One of the biggest mistakes in history
GreekEmpress says
+1 Mortimer and owensgate!
SAFI says
I think you’re mixing up different events from different times. “The Europeans” did help Greece a lot with gaining its independence in the early 19th century, even got directly involved militarily (most notably with General Nicolas Maison’s “Morea expedition”)
Chistopher Watson says
Another error was the Crimean War when we (the Brits) sided with the French and the Turks against the Russians.The PM, Lord Aberdeen, wanted to improve relations with the French. The Russians wanted to ensure that Christianity remained a force in Turkey. Seems like yet another British foreign policy mistake.
gravenimage says
I’ve just finished Trevor Royle’s history of the Crimean War. While there were many instances of bravery and decency, the whole thing was largely a sad comedy of errors. including the motives for the war itself. Concerns over Russian infiltration into Europe proper were valid; joining with the vile Ottomans to stem this, not so much.
To their credit, the British and the French at the end of the war *did* attempt to secure rights for Christians in the Ottoman Empire–but these safeguards were violated almost immediately by the Muslims, which should have surprised no one.
golem2 says
+1
Martin says
Istanbul – May 29 2020 – 567th anniversary of the conquest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjI1f-QRk4Q
Martin says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrXR41sZR7I
SAFI says
So nice to see Erdogan had no problem finding money to spend on such spectacles while his economy is in freefall.
Martin says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqpd4hFkcHI
SAFI says
lmao at the janissaries wearing surgical masks
SAFI says
I guess even with covid-19 ravaging turkey “show must go on”
Jack Gabriel says
I worked in Turkey in late 80’s and worked there. I read a fascinating account of Constantinople sacking and fall into the hands of Mehmet II by British historian Steven Runciman who was unbiased and stuck to reliable research and authentic resources. The fall of the magnificent city came at a pivotal moment and by a stroke of luck combined with treachery and warfare expertise of a Hungarian Christian long range cannon maker for money.
It is a well known fact that the ottomans were nomadic East Asian tribes that migrated west in search of wealth and treasures wherever that may happen to be. Once established in Costantinople the crossroad to Europe they embarked on their never ending cycle of invasions all around to amass wealth and power under the banner of Allahu Akbar, Islamic call to Jihad in the name of Allah the Lord of Muhammad his so called messenger.
From all indications it appears that Erdogan is dreaming and working on becoming the post Ottoman modern day Sultan mimicking his ancestors and to make himself relevant in a competing world of rival powers, east and west.
Hagia Sophia was, is and will remain the great church of the Byzantine empire no matter how much Erdogan and Turkey try to convert it into a mosque and fill it with the noise of Islamic recitations of Quranic verses. The magnificent frescos of Christ the king and his Holy mother Mary adorning the domes are the ever present witnesses watching down over the space in patience for the truth to be told for generations to come that this was once a church and will not lose its true identity with the hapless attempts of vain authorities in power now.
Brian Hoff says
The Ottoman knew how to make cannon. The Sutan was every well educated man.
gravenimage says
What absolute tripe from “Brian Hoff”–really, “DefenderofIslam”. The “Sutan” (sic) was not a cannon maker. Here’s the truth:
“Ottoman Super Cannon: The bombard that built an empire”
“Designed by the Hungarian cannon founder Orban and used in the Siege of Constantinople in 1453, the earliest three Ottoman super cannons were responsible for bringing down its walls.
Initially, the siege engineer, Orban, offered his services to the Byzantine Empire, but they refused his help because they could not afford his high wages and did not possess the raw materials necessary to produce such a weapon. Super cannons had started to be common in European siege warfare, but Orban intended to take the concept to its extreme. He then played the other side and offered his services to Sultan Mehmet II. The Sultan asked him if he could produce a weapon strong enough to smash the walls of Constantinople, to which Orban replied:
I can cast a cannon of bronze with the capacity of the stone you want. I have examined the walls of the city in great detail. I can shatter to dust not only these walls with the stones from my gun, but the very walls of Babylon itself
Orban began his work at Edirne to create one of the largest guns ever built. Workers dug a gigantic casting pit in the ground and began pouring bronze into the mold. The monster that emerged would be named by its creator, “Basilica.” He would continue to produce other batches of guns until the time of the siege, but none were as big as Basilica…”
Note that this article is politically neutral–it is just focused on the technology–it is not biased.
Jack Gabriel is quite correct.
Grimly ironic that the weapon that destroyed the Basilica of Hagia Sophia was named this.
James Lincoln says
gravenimage,
Brian Hoff is either unable or unwilling to accept the truth about islam. It apparently would cause too much cognitive dissonance.
But you knew that already – and your takedowns are educational for other Jihad Watch readers…
gravenimage says
James, the ugly “Brian Hoff” actually does know much of the truth about Islam–he has said that when Muslims reach sufficient numbers that they plan on destroying the Constitution and imposing Shari’ah law on us. He has also–very chillingly–said at this point that women will be “easy for [him] to get”.
owensgate says
This is not an “anniversary” that I would celebrate. I worked in Turkey three years – I “understood” that I was a dhimmi; their cultural and religious arrogance is only exceeded by their ignorance. It was quite unsettling. I would not do it again.
James Lincoln says
owensgate,
A great combination, arrogance and ignorance.
That pretty much sums up followers of islam…
gravenimage says
Thanks for that account, owensgate.
GreekEmpress says
So true, owensgate. Today is a very sad day in history.
gravenimage says
How the Hagia Sophia became a mosque on this day in 1453
……………….
Yes–horrifying. Muslims enslaved, raped, and slaughtered those taking refuge in Hagia Sofia.
GreekEmpress says
A prominent Turkish politician, Ismet Büyükataman, Secretary General of the Nationalist Movement Party and ally of Erdogan threatened Greece with invasion and genocide on Twitter, May 28. In a reference to the Pontic massacres he said, “Our advice to the Greek state is that between 1919-22, the people who witnessed the massacres in the Turkish nation tied the collars of their grandchildren. Otherwise, we remind you that Atatürk is not exhausted in the great Turkish nation. This time they may have to swim to Sicily.”
PS—I thought Twitter censored threats and “hate” speech??? Why not here?
gravenimage says
Awful, GreekEmpress–this is clearly a threat of violence. And Greece has done *nothing* to threaten Turkey, needless to say.
Francis Weber says
Twitter does what Twitter wants as nobody with deep pockets and the will has tried to limit their power.
Maybe Trump can!
tim gallagher says
If Islam takes control in any of our countries, I’d say that it is almost certain that all our churches and cathedrals will face the same fate as the Hagia Sophia faced. As far as I can see, Islam and any kind of tolerance never go together. I’m pretty sure that, if the Muslims ever got the chance, all our churches, Buddhist temples, etc, would be taken over and turned into mosques by the supremacist Muslims. If Muslims gain power, they always treat non-Muslims like crap. Keep Muslims out and we won’t have to face such problems.
Francis Weber says
Islam in living memory took over West Papua.
tim gallagher says
Thanks for the comment. I’m not sure what point you are making, Francis. Are you saying that Muslim Indonesia took over West Papua but treated the locals well? Even though live in Australia, which is close to West Papua and Indonesia I must say I haven’t taken much notice of what is happening there. I’m too busy to check on many things. However, on a program on Sky TV News, I cannot remember who made the point, a commentator recently mentioned how appallingly the Indonesians were treating the West Papuans. The commentator described it as almost genocide. I have heard things like this from time to time about how the Indonesians have treated the West Papuans. I have no time for Islam and I believe that Muslims always treat non-Muslims appallingly, so I suspect it is true that Indonesia is treating the West Papuans like crap, in Islam’s usual way. Just following the Koran and all that. My own aim is to try do the little I can do to oppose Islam everywhere. I have no time for Islam at all. To my mind, it is completely barbaric and violent. Of course, for Australia, I suspect that China is going to be our biggest problem by far, because it is such a massive and bullying power and will monster every country in our area of the world.
gravenimage says
Francis, you are right that the Indonesian Muslim treatement of West Papua has been very ugly.
The Hindu Kaffir says
Well, the modus operandi of the Jihadis seems to be the same all over the world. Here in India, they looted our grand temples and built mountains out of the heads of those brave Hindus who won’t bow down to the Islamic sword. But we have been resilient over the centuries. Somnath temple was pilliaged 17 times by Jihadi barbarians, but was rebuilt each time, grander than before. Recently, we got back a mosque, Babri Masjid, beneath whose domes was one of the greatest Hindu temples of all time, a temple built as a commemoration of the birth of our lord, Sri Rama, now in shambles beneath the ground. We have started building the grandest of all Hindu temples at that spot! But the western media then sees it as rising Islamophobia in Hindi nationalist India. Surely nothing wrong in reclaiming your heritage, snatched away by barbarians years ago
Myron J. Poltroonian says
Agreed. I, for one, am becoming more and more convinced that the eastern third of Turkey should once again become the western half of Armenia and then Mount Ararat would be able to be openly and completely examined for the relics of Noah’s Ark alleged to be resting there.
Charlie in NY says
Isn’t it politically incorrect and not woke to celebrate a military conquest of another nation, as opposed to independence from a colonial power (as in our July 4 or Israel Independence Day) or an Ancien Regime (as in July 14)? Or do those rules only apply to white Westerners and Jews?
gravenimage says
Yep.
John Haller says
But wait, there’s more. Not content with turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque, Islam was committed to the usual one upmanship when Sultan Mehmed II declared that the even larger Blue Mosque be constructed just to show how superior Islam really was. Inferiority complex anyone?!
Michael Copeland says
Its architect apparently was one of the many Christian children taken from their parents to be janissaries and forced to convert to Islam.
gravenimage says
Grimly so.
Don Ameche says
The Larger solution seems pretty obvious. And it doesn’t involve merely talking. Aside from that, taking back platforms to educate our youth about what islam really is seems vital.
Myron J. Poltroonian says
You sound pretty spry for someone born in 1908. Always liked your acting. Pity when you past, though.
ELI says
“It’s interesting that so many of my criticisms of Islam appear to have now been acknowledged and confirmed, courtesy of your JW contributor. So now I’m being told that there’s nothing at all wrong with Tu Quoque, and there’s also nothing wrong with Islam spreading itself by blood and conquest, because that was how the Roman and British Empires spread? Really? That’s Tu Quoque writ large, surely? So Go Tu Quoque!!!”
No, I said there is nothing unique about that event. In other words I don’t see a difference between the conquest that Islamic empires engages in and that of other empires. Do you think the sacking of cities by Islamic armies is necessarily worse than when others do it? If so, please defend your position.
Once again, of course it is WRONG to conquer and pillage. I think we all agree on that. Where we differ apparently is that I think pillaging when done by Muslims is not necessarily WORSE than pillaging done by other empires. I understand that everyone disagrees with me on this so please explain (preferably without insults or disparaging statements about my person)
CogitoErgoSum says
So you are saying that pillaging is wrong and that even when done by Muslims it is still wrong. So why do you have a problem with people here calling it wrong? The complete destruction of Carthage by Rome may have been brutal and wrong too, but it’s not the topic of discussion. And what about the sack of Troy over a woman? I’m just not getting your point. No one here is saying that pillaging is a good thing, and in fact, I for one think it is always wrong. You seem to be saying it’s not that big a deal; it’s bad but not all THAT bad.
SAFI says
“of course it is WRONG to conquer and pillage. I think we all agree on that.” No we do not all agre on that. Muslims for example clearly do not agree at all. For them it’s very very wrong but only if the kaffirs are doing it to them. But it’s not at all wrong when they do it to the kaffirs. In fact it is something glorious that should be celebrated. Just look at the videos Martin posted above to get a sample of how differently muslims think about conquering and subjugating others.
gravenimage says
Absolutely correct, SAFI.
And good to see you posting again.
gravenimage says
Muslim conquest always leads to oppression and dhimmitude. ELI wants everyone here to forget that. Over five hundred years, the Christians of Turkey were mostly forcibly converted or slaughtered outright, with most of the last falling to a genocide a hundred years ago. But ELI does not want us to think that any of this is particularly bad..
ELI says
“Odd that this ‘hyperbole’ was all along exactly the same lines, and by the conquerors as well as the conquered.”
I could be wrong of course and that’s OK. Do you think you could be wrong as well? let’s see the available evidence and decide.
“And what does ELI mean by a serious conversation? When has he ever been interested in anything here save whitewashing the horrors of Islam?”
Serious conversation means looking at the evidence objectively without misrepresenting the other’s position. I disagree with you on certain aspects of Islamic history, so what? why don’t you address me directly and bring evidence to refute what I say? do you disagree that hyperbole was often used in historical accounts?
gravenimage says
I like this–ELI is trying to minimize the horrors of Jihad conquest, and I am opposed to it–but we might both be wrong, eh?
Grotesquely false moral equivalency. Of course, his issue here is not about hyperbole in Medieval accounts.
And the reason–obviously–that I do not address ELI directly is because he is not an honest actor here.
Falsafa says
anti Turkish bigots here spewing nonsense again! educate yourselves on the barbarity, depravity of the conquests by Christian nations – blessed by the vatican – in south america, africa destroying the ancient civilizations! and you then criticise the geopolitical historical events of the 15 century with your warped sense of utopic racist, supremacist notions and beliefs. a comical farce – you motley crew of Robert Spencer fans!
gravenimage says
Note that the ludicrously named “Falsafa” believes that it is “anti Turkish” to say anything critical of the vicious Muslim hordes mass slaughtering vulnerable people taking sanctuary in a church. Just appalling.
Moreover, it was the original inhabitants of Turkey–Anatolia–who were the victims here. so his calling this “anti Turkish” makes no sense at all. But then, pious Muslims reject facts and history.
Then, Christian Westerners have taken a hard look at their own history and where they have made mistakes–this is *not* true of Islam, of course.
Note further that “Falsafa” does not say how opposing the rape, enslavement, and murder of women, children, old people, the disabled, and priests and nuns is “racist” and “supremacist”.
Falsafa says
The comical, ignorant ‘gravenimage’ continues to tirelessly spew his vitriol of hate and does a superb job as the court jester of the motley crew of bigots.
‘Better the sultans turban than the cardinals hat’ was the saying at the time, with the orthodox christians at the time relieved to have been liberated from the vaticans yoke and able to practivce their faith freely in Ottoman empire.
Those crimes you repeteadly accuse the muslims with such relish are attributable to the christian nations not the Ottomans. see 4th crusade where unspeakable horrors committed by the christian nations upon the inhabitants of the city of Constantinople was the pinnacle of christian barbarism.