Note that the game didn’t mock Islam or insult Islam in any way. It just had an update allowing players to “pray in front of a totem in order to restore their health.” That kind of thing is just as offensive to Christianity as it is to Islam. But would PUBG have revised its game for a Christian group? Of course not.
“After Muslims complain about ‘idol worshiping’, PUBG removes a mode from their mobile game that allegedly involved it,” OpIndia, June 10, 2020:
After the latest version of the PlayerUnknown’s Battlegrounds (PUBG) video game sparked a huge controversy among Muslim players the developers have now rolled back the update. The Muslim players had accused the game developers of promoting ‘idol worshipping’.
Reportedly, the controversy erupted after PUBG released a new feature titled ‘Mysterious Jungle’, which triggered a backlash in Islamic societies for allegedly pushing forms ‘idol worshipping’.
The online game PUBG Mobile had released a latest ‘Mysterious Jungle’ mode and it is reported to be exclusive to the ‘Sanhok’ map. The reason for the outrage was due to a feature present in the new update where players can pray in front of a totem in order to restore their health.
It is pertinent to note that any form of ‘idol worshipping’ is prohibited in Islam. The idolatry has been considered as the “worship of false gods” and is forbidden in Islam.
Following this update, many Muslim players took it as an insult to their religion as idol worship is prohibited in Islam. The took to Twitter to slam the creators of PUBG for promoting idol worshipping and asked fellow Muslims to uninstall PUBG.
Another user asked Muslims to uninstall PUBG, if he was a true Muslim.
Outrage in Muslim-majority nationsA number of preachers from the Middle East had also warned against the recently released PUBG update, in which players appear worshipping idols. The preachers had demanded authorities to act swiftly to save children from these concepts.
According to Gulf News, Dr Bassam Al Shatti, Professor of faith at the College of Sharia, Kuwait University, said video games feature many pros and cons, but PUBG has violated Islamic beliefs regarding prostration and bowing to idols, and this is the greatest sin in Islam because prostrating and bowing is worship and glorification solely and exclusively to Almighty Allah.
Another Islamic preacher, Dr Rashid Al Alimi, Professor at the College of Basic Education, added that these games are dangerous for Muslims since they can create generations who do not know Tawhid or the defining doctrine of Islam, which declares absolute monotheism – the unity and uniqueness of Almighty Allah as the creator and sustainer of the universe.
“The special draw of gaming that makes it the preferred pastime of so many millions of kids and adults is not just entertainment, it is dangerous because it teaches them polytheism, so they prefer it and become addicted to it,” said Al Shatti.
Similarly, in Saudi Arabia, Dr Aref Bin Mazyad Al Suhaimi, Professor of Faith in the College of Da’wah and Fundamentals of Religion at the Islamic University said, “Islam promotes tolerance, balance, equality, consensus, reformism, and all things that take the middle path to materialise the best interest of people. So Sharia permits games that have a preponderant interest, such as shooting, racing, swimming, horse riding, etc.,” he said….
The insistence of Muslims bullying and threatening creative developers to follow the principles of Islam to develop products that are in line with Islam is a disturbing trend. The attempt to ‘Halal-ise’ every product may now pressurise creative technicians such as game developers, movie makers to seek Halal certification for every product they develop.
GreekEmpress says
I guess it never occurred to them that if they didn’t like the game’s features they didn’t have to play?
PS—I thought games or fun was haram in Islam anyway.
gravenimage says
I forget who it was, but a few years ago an Imam made an exception for “First Person Shooter” games, because they could be held to teach Jihad.
In other words, it’s fine to have fun just so long as you are training to murder Infidels.
Lion heart says
gravenimage : the irony is that Muslims are the most idolatrous in history ! They go around a pagan “ Kaaba ) , kiss a pagan ( black stone of the Kaaba ) and they touch it for the atonement of their sins according to an authentic Hadith for Muhammad plus, they associate Muhammad with Allan in their witness and their witness is invalid if they don’t ! and they associate him with Allah in knowledge , richness etc ..and yet they criticize others of being pagans ! ??
FYI says
If any wild game are killed whilst on pilgrimage it is forbidden and..
“..the forfeit is to be brought as an offering to the kaaba..”
koran 5 v 95
An offering TO the kaaba….
And who is the god of the kaaba?
hu baal …who later becomes “al lah”
gravenimage says
All true, Lion heart.
Naram-Sin says
Muslims are just upset because they can’t get past level 1 and spend all their time praying to the idol.
Nuria says
naram is word for soft in the mysterious East.
soft sin? no such thing
all sin whether of mind or body has karmic repercussions✍?
gravenimage says
Nuria, “Naram-Sin” does *not* mean “soft sin”. Naram-Sin was the name of a famous Akkadian king
JamesC. says
The name Naram-Sin in Akkadian (the semitic language of Babylonia and Assyria) means “beloved of [the god] Sin”, AKA Su’en(a). The god Sin had cult-centres at Ur & Harran, & was the god of the moon, and seems to have been something of a favourite among kings of Sumer & Assyria, for many of them include his name in theirs: such as Sin-ahhe-eriba, AKA Sennacherib.
Naram-Sin was the fourth king of the Dynasty of Agade/Akkad (see Genesiis 10.10), and his reign is commonly given as 2254 to 2218. He is remembered for being regarded as a god, and for success in war, like his grandfather Sargon the Great.
Naram-Sin says
At least gravenimage and JamesC knew who Naram-Sin was. I would have used ‘Sargon the Great’ as a nome de guerre, but that was taken. I thought of using Assurnasiripal II, Suppiluliuma or Lugal-Zaggesi, but settled on Naram-Sin. Perhaps I should change my moniker to the much easier to pronounce Userma’atre’setepenre. (I’ll leave it to you to decipher what that is.)
I’ll dispense with making up a meaning for ‘Nuria’, for now.
GOLDMANN says
“Greek”, video games are for kids ? how old are you
keith O says
Some people have no lives! If they can find time to complain about an online game, then they have far too much time on their hands, then again, complaining has been turned into an art form by Mudslimes.
James Lincoln says
keith O,
I look at it a different way: muslims live to complain…
JamesC. says
I think it may be the principle of the thing that bothers them. to say that they are not under any necessity to play video games, would miss the point.
Idols are repugnant to Islam (rightly enough), because they are hateful to allah; Islam is a religion which covers absolutely all facets of life in every respect; therefore, anything which smacks of idolatry, is repugnant to Islam and allah, and cannot be allowed.
If that is their logic, it is water-tight. The question is, what do we kaffirs say in reply ? In principle, and from a Christian POV, they are completely right to object to idolatry in every form. How far are one can agree with them beyond that, is another matter. One can agree heartily that idolatry in every form is completely wrong; the question is, what counts as idolatry, and why or why not ? So to some extent, a Christian and a Muslim would agree, on the wrongness of idolatry at least; whereas, from some other points of view, those holding those POVs would see no such problem.
Muslims have even considered whether dolls are allowed, and if so, in what circumstances. So it would make perfect sense to ask similar questions about video games. Such questions come under the Muslim equivalent of Christian moral theology: https://islamqa.info/en/google-search?q=Video+games+allowed&search_engine=google
gravenimage says
Firstly, James, the idea that anyone playing this game is worshipping idols is ridiculous.
Then, Christians are not threatening this video game company.
Muslims want to force the whole world to submit to Islam.
gravenimage says
Muslims enraged, complain about “idol worship” in video game, game developer removes it
………….
More craven caving to the demands of Muslims.
Wellington says
Muslim enraged? Well, that’s new.
Rufolino says
I like it !
James Lincoln says
I think about it this way, Wellington.
If muslims are – always temporarily – not enraged, infidels are being way too accommodating…
gravenimage says
Just the continued existence of Infidels enrages Muslims.
mortimer says
If the Muslims don’t like the game … just don’t buy it.
If we give in to such demands, they will impose the Taliban regime in 100 years.
Wellington says
Your advice is eminently sound, mortimer, but it assumes you are dealing with reasonable, non-control-freak, not easily offended people.
Islam “breeds” few such people. The diametrical opposite in fact. And herein lies the root of why Islam is a bane to mankind, a regular pain in the ass.
If only Muslims would deal with other Muslims. But no, Islam demands that its deluded followers “deal” with all of mankind. Damn and how very, very annoying. Not in the least welcomed.
Rob R (Brit stuck in Britainistan) says
So, flashback to the 2000s – video gamers in the West made fun of Christians for simply being “concerned” about murderous violence in games, and then they went back to their games consoles (this includes my younger self) and barely ever gave it a second thought.
Now in 2020 the nerds INSTANTLY cave in to whatever Muslims tell them to do? Wow.
It takes many years to get this stupid, cowardly and but we got there in the end it seems.
Anyone who thinks that this doesn’t constitute an alarming precedent, is either in deep denial or they just have no fucking clue what they’re talking about. How long until video game companies are hiring Muslims to pre-approve their content before publishing?
Its not good enough to have Halal food forced on us, now we have to have Halal video games too?
JamesC. says
Islam is a totalising religion, so it affects *all* facets of life without exception. Because of the way in which its ideas are structured and combined, it cannot avoid affecting those outside it when they live cheek by jowl with those who profess it.
So we dhimmis must expect that Muslims in kaffir countries will have many more demands to make – some of which we may not care for.
LB says
As a video game hobbyist (I rarely play them nowadays because I don’t have the time, but I do closely follow the news in the industry), I can tell you that pretty much ALL video game companies–even though originally started by gamer nerds for gamer nerds–are now being run by soulless corporate suits whose only concern is profit. The games are a product and gamers are consumers; that’s it, nothing more and nothing less.
Not to mention all kinds of SJW politics that are getting injected into games due to strict diversity hire policies in most big video game companies… It’s vile and disgusting. That was the reason for the infamous “Gamergate” a few years back which you might have heard about on the news. So naturally, when muslims complain, just like any other industry, the video game companies also cave in. Because of leftist politics, yes, but also because they don’t want to lose their precious consumers. The Chinese are the worst offenders in that regard because they know they make up a huge chunk of the market so they can bully the companies into doing whatever they want, just like they do to Hollywood and NBA for example.
TL;DR: Most (if not all) big video game companies today are run by corporate suits and SJWs who only care about profit and virtue-signaling. Actual gamers and game developers are a non-factor and irrelevant in the decision-making process.
Rob R (Brit stuck in Britainistan) says
I know who they’re run by. And yes I’m aware of how “corporate” it is because of how dull most new videogames look (to me anyway).
The point I was trying to make is, you can cave in to all sorts of people but if you cave into Muslims all intelligent future is over and all hope and joy is over.
I have very little time for video games either (or money more importantly,hah…)
Rob R (Brit stuck in Britainistan) says
PUBG is made by a South Korea based company. I guess we now count South Korea as a Dhimmi state?
WAKE UP NERDS. If you don’t listen to Christians then why do you cave into these village idiots?
What is WRONG with you?
spiro says
Awhile back on this site i was told don’t preach surrender on this site
Well then why are many post telling us about how some group has caved in to another muslem demand
I don’t see much resistance from non muslem
It’s all about $
30 pieces of silver
gravenimage says
That was probably me, Spiro.
I do not dispute that things are terribly dire right now, especially with Infidels caving to Muslim demands.
But more people *are* waking up all the time to the threat of Islam–albeit slowly. I still don’t believe that preaching surrender is a good thing–isn’t there enough of that already?
Spiro says
This needs to be pointed out
It’s an observation not preaching
Information on this site needs to more wide spread
How I don’t know
gravenimage says
Urging people to give up can indeed be considered preaching surrender, Spiro.
I think it is possible to note how bad things are–to not sugar-coat things–while still vowing to keep up the fight.
It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness–no matter how dark it may be.
Eur says
For that very reason, let’s all end up eating halal. All slaughterhouses will adopt the Islamic slaughter method and that meat will reach all citizens, and Muslims do not have to become a majority for that to be a reality, simply a very organized and intransigent minority. Also today they have the much easier way because they can use the card of racism and xenophobia. Obviously we will end up under the yoke of imams who will dictate what is moral and immoral and freedom will end. That is our future if we allow this form of fascism called Islam expand and is expanding.
GOLDMANN says
“EUR ” ??????well said !!?
Rod says
“Muslims enraged, complain about “idol worship” in video game, game developer removes it”
Aren’t those Muslims ridiculous. You’ve gotta laugh. So primitive.
From today’s news:-
‘Just ridiculous’: what it’s like to wait five hours in line to vote in the US.
Wellington says
Again, your stupid moral equivalency thinking, Rod, is showing most glaringly—for all of sense and knowledge to see.
Rod says
You’re quite right. Primitive people have every right to ridicule other primitive people.
As for feeling morally superior, I’m not sure that’s warranted.
gravenimage says
I see that “Rod” considers the civilized Wellington to be “primitive” for opposing the horrors of Jihad and Shari’ah. Very telling.
Wellington says
Thank you, gravenimage.
gravenimage says
What do these two issues have to do with each other?
I am no fan of long waits to vote, but if “Rod” were *really* concerned about democracy, why wouldn’t he care that Islam wants to crush democracy?
“Germany: Shi’ite Muslim cleric says Iran’s Islamic revolution ‘has no borders,’ opposes ‘democracy in the world’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2020/06/germany-shiite-muslim-cleric-says-irans-islamic-revolution-has-no-borders-opposes-democracy-in-the-world
But of course he is not–his only purpose here is to castigate the West for supposedly not living up to standards that Islam wants destroyed outright.
James Lincoln says
Rod,
I would highly recommend that you do not try to match wits with highly intelligent and well-informed people like Wellington and gravenimage.
You are way out of your league…
Wellington says
Count yourself in there too, James.
James Lincoln says
Thanks!
Rod says
Wellington is the highly intelligent and well-informed contributor who informs us that racism in the US “is largely a myth”.
I would never attempt to match wits with an intellect like that one. Mind blowing indeed!
gi’s rare gift is in analysing the secret, unspoken opinions of others. Invariably wrong, but always amusing. Matching wits with gi – sadly far beyond my abilities.
Wellington says
Yes, Rod, systemic racism in America today is largely a myth. How is a talented, motivated young black person in America today prevented by white America from succeeding in any field of their choosing? Be specific. I say you can’t.
Moreover, by far, and I wish black America well, the greatest enemy of black America is black America. 73% of black babies are born out of wedlock and this is a recipe for societal suicide. Young black males kill other young black males (and sometimes black women and children) in droves. 19 were killed just this weekend past in Chicago alone. Per 2018 FBI statistics, almost 8,0000 blacks were killed and of these only 233 by the police, and in all but a handful of cases in those 233 the black had a gun—and remember not having a gun does not mean innocence, for instance Michael Brown in the Ferguson, Missouri case in 2014 tried to take Officer Wilson’s gun away from him and Wilson thereafter shot Brown (who never had his hands up—that was a lie). A mixed race grand jury in the Brown case found Officer Wilson innocent of all charges.
And here’s another statistic from the CDC and as mentioned many times by Larry Elder, himself black: Police killings of blacks are down 75% over the last forty-five years while police shooting of whites have remained the same over this same time period—“flatlined” as Elder has put it. And yet another statistic per the FBI, to wit, a policeman in America is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a young black male than the other way around. Do you know any of this?
I repeat, there is no systemic racism in America and you can’t prove that there is. Yes, there are individual racists, both white and black, but this is far different from saying that America is a racist country. It is not and you are spouting myth, not fact.
gravenimage says
Note that “Rod” has not shown that anything I said was false, nor has he said anything critical of Islam’s crushing of democracy. *Very* telling.
Rod says
Quotes from gi (Let’s call gi “gravy”)
1. Note that “Rod” has not shown that anything I said was false
2. “Rod” considers the civilized Wellington to be “primitive”
Rod does not consider Wellington to be primitive, nor has he ever said that he does.
So, Gravy, statement No 2 is “false”, which disproves your statement No 1.
So statement No 2 is what is commonly known as a “lie”, and that makes you a “liar”. If you want more examples, I can go on and prove you to be a “habitual liar”. But what woulds be the point?
As for Wellington’s claim that racism is a myth – to prove his thesis, he resorts to blatantly racist statements, and is blissfully unaware that he is doing so. Not exactly a “well informed” point of view. Quite the opposite.
Why are they racist statements, I hear you indignantly ask? You would get a more complete reply from any American (there are millions) currently brandishing placards in your streets, if you dare ask.
Wellington says
Rod: Cite my racist statements. What was racist in anything that I said? Is stating, for instance, that 73% of black babies are born out of wedlock and this a prescription for societal suicide racist? If so, why? Is stating, per FBI statistics, that a policeman is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a young black male than the other way around racist? If so, why? What did I say that was untrue? Are stating facts now racist? Guess this goes along with what Robert Spencer has said for years, to wit, that truth is the new hate speech. In any case, you can’t just generically state that someone made racist statements and give no examples. Tell me why I am racist based on anything that I have written.
I certainly thought, as did gravenimage, that you were calling me primitive in your statement, “Primitive people have every right to criticize other primitive people.” So, Rod, who are the first primitive people you stated and who are the second? Be clear.
And I don’t want a reply from “any American brandishing placards…..” I want a reply from YOU. Don’t pass the buck. Here, the buck stops with you. Quite frankly, so far you have argued not only generally and with no specifics, but pathetically. Surprise me and finally make a real argument.
gravenimage says
“Rod” wrote:
Quotes from gi (Let’s call gi “gravy”)
………………..
Well, this is pretty lame. Really, other trolls have come up with better. kaboooooooooooooom referred to me as “gravystain”, and the appalling Benedict–who was a proponent for forcing Western women and girls into Burqas–came up with the sobriquet “cravenimage”, and used it along with several other Muslim trolls.
More:
1. Note that “Rod” has not shown that anything I said was false
2. “Rod” considers the civilized Wellington to be “primitive”
Rod does not consider Wellington to be primitive, nor has he ever said that he does.
So, Gravy, statement No 2 is “false”, which disproves your statement No 1.
So statement No 2 is what is commonly known as a “lie”, and that makes you a “liar”. If you want more examples, I can go on and prove you to be a “habitual liar”. But what woulds be the point?
………………..
This is what “Rod” wrote, above, replying to Wellington:
Wellington wrote:
Again, your stupid moral equivalency thinking, Rod, is showing most glaringly—for all of sense and knowledge to see.
Rod wrote:
You’re quite right. Primitive people have every right to ridicule other primitive people.
As for feeling morally superior, I’m not sure that’s warranted.
…
This certainly sounds as though “Rod” is saying that Wellington is primitive. If he actually meant something else, why doesn’t he say so?
More:
As for Wellington’s claim that racism is a myth – to prove his thesis, he resorts to blatantly racist statements, and is blissfully unaware that he is doing so. Not exactly a “well informed” point of view. Quite the opposite.
Why are they racist statements, I hear you indignantly ask? You would get a more complete reply from any American (there are millions) currently brandishing placards in your streets, if you dare ask.
………………..
In other words, “Rod” is unable to cite anything that Wellington said that was racist, let alone incorrect–but he still wants to imply that having to actually back up his scurrilous assertions are simply beneath him.
Both sad and ugly.
Rod says
It appears to me, Wellington, that to discount the complaints of black Americans and to suggest that they are the cause of their own suffering is about as racist as you can get. And that “blame the victim” is a rather feeble response, often put forward, but surely always invalid. But let’s give you the benefit of the doubt.
Has it not occurred to you that hundreds of thousands condemning racism as they are at present, describing how they themselves experience it, and the disadvantages they suffer from it, might be closer to the reality than you are? (I’m guessing you’re a comfortably positioned white American male – right?) And I should disregard their accounts of their lived experience, and instead accept your assessment?
And what does the % born out of wedlock have to do with it? Do I detect another hint of racism? What I see is that black Americans have been bought, sold and enslaved for hundreds of years by white Christians who enriched themselves hugely, fought a savage war to defend their right to do so, then instituted a vicious regime of racist discrimination for another century. It’s not surprising that African-Americans have largely rejected cultural values, including marriage, of those who brutally mistreated them, and in other ways failed miserably to live up to their “Christian” values. The numbers of children born to parents who have never been in church is rising steadily throughout the world. Many have learned to live good lives without the help of Christian teaching. (It’s not hard.)
The other thing which stands out from your post is the stunning levels of violence which you describe. As is so obvious to everybody, something is seriously wrong with your society. Is not racism part of the problem? A large cohort of repressed, disadvantaged, bitterly resentful people in your population is surely a recipe for continuing strife. Ignore them and pay the price.
Wellington says
Rod: Thank you for your last reply.
I have never discounted the complaints of black Americans but to assert, as I have, that the vast majority of their problems are self-inflicted (which black authors like Shelby Steele, Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell have many times indicated), IF TRUE, and I think they are, does not make one into a racist.
Moving away from blacks, to point out that a person or group who have major problems have these problems primarily because they are self-inflicted does not equate to insensitivity or some kind of animus. Take for example Latin America. No one looks at that region of the world and says, yes, that’s an area that works. But why doesn’t it? Are Latin America’s problems primarily due to non-Latin Americans? I don’t think so. The dereliction in not creating a middle class (the old line about LA is that there you have a maid or you are a maid), not containing military rule right from the outset when LA broke away from Spain, not diversifying your economy, etc. have been overwhelmingly self-inflicted.
Yes, America has sometimes backed military regimes but this is because a true democratic option didn’t exist and during the Cold War Communist leaning authoritarians who indicated a favorable view toward that massive former oppressor, the USSR, was not something the US could tolerate. If true democracies had been established in Latin America, there would never have been any reason for America to interfere there. Take as an example, Nicaragua, which by 1912 saw a complete breakdown of law and order—anarchy reigned and American businesses were threatened. So first Taft an then Wilson stationed US troops there and restored order. What was the alternative? The fact that Nicaragua then resorted to your classic Latin American dictatorship under the Somoza family was beyond America’s capacity to correct. Every people have the government they deserve.
Back to American blacks. Just because a cry of racism is raised does not mean it is true. The “race card” has been used so often in America it has lost virtually all meaning. And I am stunned you can’t see how devastating massive out of wedlock birth is to the black community. Every study I have ever come across contends that single-parent households means that a child is (depending on which study is consulted) 12-15 less likely to make it in life. The most successful of all groups in America are Asian-Americans and Jewish-Americans, who also have the most intact nuclear family units, in no way are these two features of Asian-Americans and Jewish-Americans not interrelated. Indeed, among those black Americans who have an in tact family unit, the success rate in life for them and their earning power is essentially the same as that of many other ethnic and racial groups, including whites. By all means do not overlook the enormous damage out of wedlock birth will do to any group of human beings.
Where you are clearly dead wrong is in assuming that slavery permanently harmed the possibility of a strong black family. Slavery was awful but blacks made great leaps forward following the Civil War and by 1960 only some 20% of black babies were born out of wedlock. Now it is over 70%. Jim Crow certainly existed in the early 20th century and yet black families were largely in tact. So, what ruined them? The answer is the welfare state. Idiotic federal initiatives like giving more to a mother and her children if the father left the home (begun by Jimmy Carter) were highly destructive to black families. Jason Riley, a black journalist who has seen what the welfare state has done to black Americans, wrote a work several years ago whose title says it all, “Please Stop Helping Us.” Black conservatives like Riley, Sowell, Williams, Elder and Steele have repeatedly written and spoken about how destructive the welfare state has been to blacks since its beginnings in the 1960’s.
Finally, the rampant violence in the black community cannot be blamed upon whites. Young black males kill each other in huge amounts and even though black males make up only some 5-6% of the American population they account for almost 50% of the murders, almost always of each other. How is pointing this out and wanting it to end racist? Are blacks not expected to take any responsibility for their own behavior? Indeed, exculpating blacks of self-destructive behavior is itself, how ironic, quite racist. It implies that blacks need a new master to take care of them—the government welfare master as a substitute for the old white plantation master. Black conservatives understand this fully.
Well, this is enough for now. Your turn if you care.
Wellington says
Should read”…12-15 times less likely…” rather than “….12-15 less likely….”
Rod says
Latin America
Panama and Noriega, Chile and Pinochet, Cuba and Batista, Argentina and Videla, Nicaragua and Somoza and Contras, Guatemala and El Salvador and a succession over many years of particularly hideous, murderous dictators, responsible for tens of thousands of civilian deaths – all have one thing in common – strong support, military and/or diplomatic from USA. Some were in fact installed with USA assistance.
There are more, and more still in SE Asia, Philippines, etc. In none of these cases was “true democracy” the objective, and in none of these cases was it achieved. Instead, something totally different was established or allowed to continue. You mention “American businesses were threatened”, and that, not democracy, is what it’s all about.
You have three or four American black spokesmen to support your thesis. I believe I could easily collect three or four hundred to support my case on the streets of New York this afternoon.
Children born “out of wedlock” often have two supportive parents. Children born within conventional marriages often don’t. There are no rules any more. If you want to argue that blacks are more likely to lack the morality or decency to support their own children, your “non-racist” stance gets even more precarious.
Finally, we can’t blame rampant violence on whites, you tell us, and we can’t blame it on failings in the character of blacks (that would be racist). So, what’s wrong with America?
I rest my case.
gravenimage says
I was born out of wedlock and into the underclass, and it was indeed rife with crime and substance abuse. Incidentally, I am white.
Certainly, being born out of wedlock is not always a negative indicator–but it definitely is statistically. Noting this does not make one racist. In fact, many black critics such as Walter Williams themselves cite this problem.
And not all of these violently rioting are blacks, in any case–many are Antifa whites.
As for what is wrong with America, the idea that most Americans are rioting in the streets simply is not the case. Much of what has emboldened the rioters is the knowledge that such violence would be largely allowed by law enforcement.
Rod says
Riots, gravy? You’re not paying attention. Antifa? How did they recruit so many hundreds of thousands so quickly? It’s beyond belief.
Violence? As in Lafayette Square, with teargas, rubber bullets, smoke grenades? That’s not violence, it’s just the president going to church.
Wellington says
You rest your case too easily, even fallaciously, Rod. And I will not let you get away with such spurious thinking.
I should have known you would have gone to the Leftist meme bringing up Latin America as I did, even though the greatest killers in Latin America were on the Left, starting with Castro. He was so awful he made Batista look like a candidate for sainthood.
Castro had thousands killed and put huge numbers in prisons or psychiatric hospitals for the grave crime of disagreeing with him. Batista pales, PALES, in comparison to Castro. The fact that you don’t know this speaks volumes.
And the Somozas in Nicaragua were awful but they didn’t, contra the Sandinistas, just kill people en masse, as the Sandinistas did with the Mosquito Indians (and others). Under the Somozas, the Mosquito Indians were left alone, not helped but left alone. Under the Sandinistas they were slaughtered en masse, which helps explain why so many formed part of the Contras, who, per Leftthink, were terrible people all the while Leftthink exculpated the Sandinistas as they did Castro and his hideous regime.
I don’t like either the Far Right or the Far Left but at least the Far Right tends very much not to destroy an economy unlike the Far Left, though both destroy freedom. Do you get this either?
OK, let’s shift to a white society—Russia. Russia is basically a third world country with nuclear weapons. Almost all of its problems are self-inflicted as many Russian and Russian-American students I have taught have confirmed to me innumerable times. Nothing really works in Russia. My brother has been there several times and he, as with Russians themselves, and in particular a Norwegian student I taught, have conveyed to me that it is a horribly broken down country where crime is rampant and corruption is even more rampant and you can’t even get hot water most of the time. Care to say what troubles Russia is not mostly self-inflicted? I aver it is due to the Russians’ woeful lack of freedom, whether under Czars, First Secretaries or now Putin. Or am I being racist again even though I am white?
You, Rod, are so typical of Leftthink. You want to not only tell someone who disagrees with you why they’re wrong but why they’re bad as well. I only want to tell you why you are wrong.
BTW, my nephew is married to a black woman and my brother to a Korean. In our family, we don’t care about race and ethnicity, we care about ideas, which obviously you are deficient in. And take the time to read what Walter Williams, Larry Elder, Candace Owens, Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, all conservative black Americans, have to say about blacks and America in general. But you won’t. You will just generically state that you can produce “three or four hundred” blacks that would dispute these black conservatives and yours truly WITHOUT naming even one. This is demonstrative of how the Left argues. It makes all kinds of idle comments with no back-up. You come to mind.
I rest my case.
Rod says
Wellington, I thought you were going to tell me about all the “true democracies” the USA had established in Latin America during their very long close military, diplomatic, commercial involvement in so many different countries there. Why else were they there, indeed? Why did you mention them? But I mention Pinochet, Somoza, and a few others, and suddenly we’re talking about Sandinistas and I’ve become a communist. Odd.
Surely the reality is (and this is fact) that the USA had long and intimate association with many very odious military dictators, training violent pseudo-police for them (The School of the Americas, Fort Benning – is it still going?), supplying arms, diplomatic support, and finance. And that US involvement removed none of these dictatorships, and produced no “true democracies” whatever. In fact, the very opposite.
As for your multiracial family connections, I’m reminded of the old phrase “I’m not a racist, but……” or “Some of my best friends are black, but…..”
Instead of “I rest my case” you might have said “I’m changing the subject.”
Gravy, you’re concerned about riots and violence. It’s now well established that almost all the protests were/are peaceful, hundreds of them. The real, significant violence was that committed on Mr Floyd, and that committed by police against peaceful protestors, including a quite violent unprovoked assault on journalists, to enable your president to make a silly triumphal march to, of all places, a church. These both were so contemptuous of civilised standards of behaviour, that I’m left wondering, again, what is wrong with your country?
Wellington says
Well, it seems, Rod you still want to paint me as some kind of bad person, which only validates what I said previously and what so many Leftists do, i.e., they must tell you that you are not only wrong but bad. BTW, I never accused you of being a communist. Straw dog argument, Rod.
You also never answered my question of how is a young, motivated, black person in America prevented by white America from achieving in any field of their choosing? I taught forty years ago in a high school in Appalachia where poor white kids could not get scholarships but middle class black kids could. My own wife, who is white, is in the entertainment business and has been told point blank many times she gave the best audition but those running the show wanted “a person of color”—for example for the Mother Superior role in Sound of Music.
As for America sometimes working with and supporting authoritarian regimes, well, Rod, we live in a real world. It would be just wonderful if every one of America’s allies during the Cold War and unto today were full fledged democracies, but the world doesn’t work that way. Welcome to Realpolitik. During the Cold War we were forced to support certain unsavory regimes because we were in a war to the death with the USSR (the demise of this evil empire finally occurred in 1991 and, per Gorbachev’s Foreign Minister, Alexander Bessmertnykh, “Ronald Reagan’s defense spending and Strategic Defense Initiative accelerated the demise of the Soviet Union”). Sometimes, you know you must make alliances with rogues. Think America and the UK should not have aligned with Stalin against Hitler? Real world, time, Rod.
Peaceful protesters? A hell of a lot of them were not. One American city after another was trashed by thugs—a lot of them. And what of all the police, the vast majority of whom do their job conscientiously and well, who were harmed or even killed during the recent protests? Have you nothing to say about them?
Rod says
Wellington, I live in a real world too. So do the rest of us non-Americans. Somehow, we managed (just lucky, I suppose) not to be “forced” to support murderous dictators with arms supplies and torture training and money, while pretending we were doing good.
But I am left wondering how an alliance with e.g. Guatemala’s brutal dictators helped in the “war to the death with the USSR”. And I’m astonished that the mighty USA has been “forced” to do such evil against its will. Perhaps that’s how you come to bomb so many other countries, wage a pointless war for so many years in SE Asia with millions killed, destabilise the entire Middle East with a stupid invasion to find WMDs which we all knew never existed, and create worldwide chaos which we non-Americans could well do without.
All these events are historical facts. You might like to believe that they never happened, but many in the real world know they did.
I have to take your word that “One American city after another was trashed by thugs—a lot of them.” Our media’s false news must have misled us. Have I “nothing to say” about them? Only, why is this happening in your country? Time you got yourselves back into the civilised world. Stop killing each other, and other people. Stop your irrational hatred of Muslims and get your own house in order.
gravenimage says
Rod wrote:
Riots, gravy? You’re not paying attention. Antifa? How did they recruit so many hundreds of thousands so quickly? It’s beyond belief.
……………………
“Rod’s” idea that large numbers of thugs rioting somehow validates looting and arson is bizarre.
Would be spout the same apologia for those who perpetrated Kristallnacht?
Rod says
‘“Rod’s” idea that large numbers of thugs rioting somehow validates looting and arson..’
Lying again, gravy? Tut tut.
Wellington says
Rod: I don’t hate all Muslims just as I don’t hate all Marxists, but I do hate Islam and Marxism. So again you made a false assumption about me.
Islam is simply awful and is the only religion that calls for war to be made upon humanity “until all religion is with Allah.” {Sura 8:39} 109 verses in the Koran call for this. By contrast, there are 0 verses in the New Testament calling upon Christians to wage war across the earth until all the world is under Christian domination. 109 to 0. See why moral equivalency thinking is often so very stupid?
Islam to this very day, and this is mainstream Islam as taught by every major school of Islamic theology, Sunni or Shiite, mandates that a Muslim who converts to another religion must be killed. It’s right in the Koran, Sura 4:89, and in the hadiths where, as an example, Mohammed himself says, “Those who leave their Islamic faith, kill them.” {Bukhari Hadith 9.84.57}. No other religion in its theological blueprint has rot like death for apostasy or the requirement to wage war upon humanity to spread religion. And remember, I am an agnostic with no religious inclination whatsoever, but Islam is not just another religion and one knows this or should know it. Care to defend Islam, Rod?
Really? And please no silly comment to the effect that Christians have done wrong in the past. Yes, some Christians have but when they did they were violating Christian tenets while so very often when Muslims engage in violence they are fulfilling Islamic tenets. The contrast could not be greater.
I see you engaged in the standard excoriation of America for waging war. Well, America hasn’t waged war against free countries, ever noticed that? On the specific matter of Guatemala, my oldest friend is married to the niece of the man that Eisenhower installed in Guatemala as President in Operation PbSuccess in 1954. The alternative was to allow an authoritarian to continue to rule in Guatemala who was highly favorable to the Soviets and Eisenhower could not allow for Soviet bases in Central America. Remember, we were fighting the Cold War at the time and, again, it would have been lovely if all of our allies were democracies but the world doesn’t wok that way. Also, America has had responsibilities that other countries don’t even have to think about let alone act upon. It’s easy to be Denmark or Canada. It’s damn difficult being America, which is the mightiest polity in history and which has used its might so often for good and so little for wrong.
The war in Vietnam was one fought to keep Communism from spreading, same as in Korea. Perhaps we should not have fought in SE Asia, that’s a reasonable position to take (after all, can’t fight everywhere), but we did not do so for territorial acquisition but rather to prevent the spread of one of the worst ideologies ever developed by man, Marxism, which is right up there with Nazism and Islam as “a first-rate totalitarian ideology.” Keep in mind that the real killing began only once we left SE Asia in 1975. Those opposed to American involvement in Vietnam conveniently overlook this and it validates why we were there in the first place, though I think the American politicians, especially LBJ, fought the war in the wrong way.
As for WMDs in Iraq, every major intelligence agency thought that Saddam Hussein was still hiding them. Remember, he was the only dictator on earth who had WMDs AND had used them. He also was regularly violating the true terms of the 1991 Gulf War, for instance firing on British and American jets patrolling the two no-fly zones on almost a daily basis. Do you know any of this? Where Bush 43 made a huge mistake was not in taking out SH—he had to go— but in thinking we could install democracy in Iraq. Democracy and Islam are completely incompatible because the former requires freedom and the latter detests freedom. Bush should have just looked for a Mubarak type from the Iraqi military, installed him, and left, minus a few Special Forces to take out the extra bad guys now and again. I am against nation building by America because most of the world, quite frankly, sucks. But I am glad we fought the world wars and after them rebuilt Europe and protected it with such initiatives as the Truman Doctrine, the Marshal Plan, the Berlin Airlift and the creation of NATO, the strongest and most effective military alliance in history for the protection and promotion of freedom, though I think it a disgrace Turkey still remains in it.
As for riots in America, loads of countries have riots and the legacy of slavery still haunts America. What has exacerbated this is a grievance mentality fostered by the Left. No one knows this better than black American conservatives. Leftism has also taken over our educational institutions where America is regularly portrayed as a horrible country, yet more people want to emigrate to America by far than to any other country on earth. Black Africans I have spoken to from such countries as Nigeria, Gambia and Uganda have told me how great America is and think that black Americans as a whole do not grasp this. Ah, if you think of yourself as a victim you can never be happy. And you yet have told me how a young, motivated black person is stopped by white America from becoming successful in the field of their choosing. You will not be able to because white America no longer thwarts blacks who wish to achieve and averring otherwise is not backed up by any facts.
So, Rod, would the world be better off without America? I gather that you do. A world would be a much more horrible place I am convinced but people on the Left can’t grasp this. There is much they cannot grasp. You come to mind.
GOLDMANN says
Oh ! “Rod” YOU are the simpleton. ? Actually its in the BIBLE KJV, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. DO NOT WORSHIP FALSE IDOLS. ✝ you pagan . for ONCE they are correct. ??who’s the primitive now ?
Vladimir says
The Islamic concept of Idolatry is not the same as the Christian concept of what the sin of idolatry consists of. There’s some overlap, but they are far broader in their idea of what it is.
gravenimage says
True, Vladimir. And Christians are not trying to crush freedom of expression, as with this video game.
ntesdorf says
If the Muslims do not like the computer game, they do not have to play it. They could even create their own game and play that. This complaining about the game is akin to forcing all people to eat Halal food at schools because Muslims demand it. If Muslims don’t like the food, they can bring their own.
GOLDMANN says
“Dorf” they are correct, do you not know the 10 COMMANDMENTS?!, in the BIBLE KJV ? Mr / Madam. it States DO NOT WORSHIP FALSE IDOLS. ?✝
Uma Maheswar Nakka says
It is just a game, why these people are so much concerned.
GOLDMANN says
“Uma”, Games are for kids how old are you ??! a teenager ?.GROW UP . ?For once they are correct ??
gravenimage says
GOLDMANN, you do not “worship” anything in this video game.
Moreover, there is always an implicit threat behind such Muslim demands. Surely you are not saying that Christians should be threatening the makers of video games?
And the idea that it is mature to do so is particularly disturbing.
Martin Slann says
Are muslims running out of issues to become enraged over?
gravenimage says
Never.
GOLDMANN says
“Mr Slann”, For once they are right?? ? speaking as a born- again Christian for 40’ys.✝
Steven RSA says
I suggest non-muslims don’t support this game or company. Let them derive profits solely from the muslim market.
Rod says
“Let them derive profits solely from the muslim market.”
That would mean no more very lucrative sales of US arms to Muslim countries, including very nasty dictatorships. I don’t think Mr Pompeo or the Pussy Grabber would come at that. Between morals and money, guess what comes first.
Blurb1000 says
Madness put in a madness system.
JamesC. says
“ Note that the game didn’t mock Islam or insult Islam in any way. It just had an update allowing players to “pray in front of a totem in order to restore their health.” That kind of thing is just as offensive to Christianity as it is to Islam. But would PUBG have revised its game for a Christian group? Of course not.”
Prayer “in front of a totem” sounds like something far short of worshipping allah alone. STM the Muslim complainants may have a legitimate complaint here. That PUBG might well have ignored Christian complaints of idolatry, may very well be true, but has no immediate bearing on whether “prayer in front of a totem” is allowable in Islam. If it is not, then the complainants would seem to be justified in their complaint.
ronyvo says
“Muslims angered”, When are WE going to learn not to give a damn about ‘Muslims angered’ and concentrate on THE TRUTH?
FYI says
Magic mo and the mosque in Jerusalem that he visited {except that,awkwardly, it didn’t exist in mo’s time koran 17:1}..
muhammed and his magical winged FLYING DONKEY with a woman’s face called buraq,flying around up in the clouds.
allah with his ONE LEG AND his TWO RIGHT HANDS.
allah:muhammed’s sock puppet.
The “angel” jibreel..the cave of mysteries {with conveniently no witnesses}
Somebody needs to make a video game…..
Christina Williams says
The muslims are not peaceful and do Not believe in the Same God as Christians. Their definition of God, is he is Master and humans are his slaves. He doesn’t have to make sense and he can change his teachings on a dime BUT ALWAYS they are moving toward world DOMINATION. AND Sharia Law? Does not include any of the freedoms we have and women are Very Much the bottom of the human race when it comes to rights, their ability to accuse a man of anything. All they need to do is say a man or group of men has violated them and their own brothers or father or any other muslim MAN can kill them and walk away with pats on the back from their society.
Yogesh says
What theg worship in Macca? What’s inside that structure? Isn’t that Idol worshipping? These Basturds r Hypocrites.