“As always, Robert Spencer dares to go where almost no one does and this book is no exception. Why are so few asking these essential questions with regards to Islam’s inception? The answer becomes evident as you read this fascinating, well- researched book—which in turn raises an abysmal question: could it be that the past 1400 years were based on a mirage?” — NOOR BIN LADIN, writer and advocate dedicated to defending freedom and those threatened by the adherents of oppressive ideologies
Preorder Did Muhammad Exist? Revised and Expanded Edition here.
gravenimage says
‘Did Muhammad Exist?’: ‘Robert Spencer dares to go where almost no one does and this book is no exception’
……………….
Good observation from Noor bin Laden. Robert Spencer is not just a great scholar, but an original thinker.
Wellington says
I agree, gravenimage, but because Robert Spencer dares criticize Islam AND because he does not have a PhD (which has so much less value than it once did), the blind element of mankind and the snobbish element of mankind will continue to do their best to dismiss him. So far it looks as though they’re not succeeding.
Good. Better for Spencer. Better for those who prize freedom and know full well Islam does not. Better long term for all the world.
gravenimage says
Yes–absurd, Wellington. Firstly, Robert Spencer does have a Master’s degree in Religious Studies from a major university–he has a solid academic background.
Even more salient, note that none of these Muslim apologists–even those who may themselves hold PhDs–are able to refute anything he has to say.
DavidW says
But they don’t have to refute anything. Why? Well, because of … uh … because … well reasons … that’s why.
gravenimage says
Yep. Neither Leftists nor Muslims believe they have to argue rationally.
peter says
I think if my memory serves me right ,Robert has touched upon the Phd or lack thereof. When he got his masters from university of Chapel Hill ,most endowment chairs in religious studies were funded by Saudi Arabia. Shrewd as he is, Robert realized that however brilliant his thesis may be ,he won’t get his Phd if he criticized Islam and Mohamed as the money was coming from Saudi’s .That is also true of lot of scientific research today as many of the researches are funded by Pharmaceutical companies, who will own the right to publish the results of your research when it is funded by them . If your research does not show their product in favorable light it is unlikely to be published .So much as the Phd goes. That is not to say that Robert is in anyway inferior to those who obtained their Phd under those circumstances.
gravenimage says
This is often true about Islamic Studies programs.
mgoldberg says
Well if Robert Spencer where like the phd’s of the colleges, he’d whine that he’s not appreciated because of prejudice and demand people change. Instead, he rolls up his sleeves, researches, and writes tomes on the topics that define and defy the common prescribed and or commanded beliefs about Islam, as the oppressed victim of all religions and cultures. For this he is ignored but the facts cannot be erased….. hopefully, and hopefully he keeps writing and providing all the hard dollars and cents in depth analysis so lacking across the board today. And as an aside…. how the heck does Noor Bin Ladin escape the pressure of her family and what might be peril for what she supports and says?
Infidel says
One thing I looked for but never found: is Noor bin Laden actually an apostate, or did she just turn against al Qaeda but remains muslim in other areas of life?
DavidW says
I think her question, “could it be that the past 1400 years were based on a mirage?” might suggest she is not a muslim, or perhaps is trending toward apostasy.
gravenimage says
I have read before that she is an ex-Muslim.
Terry Gain says
Infidel
Noor’s mother is Swiss. Her parents were divorced when she was a young child and she was raised by her mother. She is not a Muslim and judging by the interview with God Saad I take it that she was never a Muslim.
Noor is a supporter of President Trump and a fan of Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity.
Terry Gain says
The Gad Saad interview is available on YouTube
gravenimage says
Thank you, Terry.
Infidel says
Terry
Thanks for the details
Aussie Infidel says
Infidel, In a video interview with Annie Cyrus, Noor Bin Laden mentioned that she was never a Muslim, but brought up in Switzerland by her mother without any religion, as a freethinker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuAKbohETqY&t=195s
Noor is very much pro-American (unlike her uncle Osama). She seems to be very intelligent and understands American politics better than most non-Americans I’ve met. And what’s more she seems like a very nice woman.
Near the end of the video (from 45m 10s). Noor describes her background.
gravenimage says
+1
mortimer says
NOOR BIN LADIN (a niece of OBL) was raised as a non-observant Muslim by her mother and lived most of her life in Switzerland with several years in Saudi Arabia, but her mother (Carmen bin Laden) couldn’t bear KSA’s extreme lack of freedom and returned with her two girls to Switzerland.
NOOR BIN LADIN has had many years to analyze what’s wrong in Islam and her insights add to the perceptive insights of her mother Carmen.
Noor bin Laden is an example of modern ex-Muslim women who have experienced the joys and opportunities of freedom and want to share those blessings with all Muslim women. Good luck to her.
Sabri S. says
This book will go where others choose not to…absolutely nowhere! The life of Muhammad, peace be upon him, and his companions is so well documented, we even know his personal habits and food preferences. And relying on a useful idiot like Noor, who can’t even visit her country or family, and who has never held a job, speaks volumes. Good try though infidels….maybe, you should ask if Jesus existed, given that you have no record of his life from the age of 13 to 30? You can blame the council of nicea in 325 for that, as that meeting was conducted by kaffirs such as yourselves. And while you are at it, destroy that picture of that Roman soldier you worship. Issa/Jesus was dark skinned and middle eastern (from Judea) – just like me!
Otis says
Can you show us where he was burried if indeed he was real? Simple question Mr.know it all Sabri S.
Infidel says
Maybe if the Saudis allow, we can dig up his tomb in Medina and check who’s actually buried there??
Brian Ozzy says
Jesus was dark skinned just like you huh! Well according to many comments in the kooran and the hadiths that flogged the point, old Mo was very, very white, just like me. In fact one of his made up followers even noted that once while astride their camels (or perhaps behind them) he saw Mo’s little winkie and noted that it was also very, very white. Also your absurd comment on the well documented evidence that Mo existed is most risible. Do you mean the incomprehensible, ludicrous kooran cobbled together 30 years after dear leaders demise or the laughable hadiths made up 200 years later. LOL………. Just asking…..
tim gallagher says
Well said, Brian Ozzy. A good demolition of that Muslim brain dead Sabri’s idiotic, lying garbage. I couldn’t agree more about what an incomprehensible and boring load of crap that the Koran is. It has to be one of greatest loads of rubbish ever written in the history of literature. I also agree about what rubbish the laughable hadiths were. I don’t believe Muhammad existed and allah has to be the most evil version of what god is supposed to be like in the history of mankind. Of course, most Muslims will probably go right on believing that their barbaric religion is actually the truth. Too many of them have been too brainwashed to be able to ever escape their bullshit religion, Islam, even if it is pointed out that it is all a load of lying rubbish and that Muhammad never existed. What a waste of a life it is to be part of a religion that is nothing but lies.
Ecosse1314 says
If Jesus didn’t exist then why are there so many stories allegedly about him inthe Korant. So if Jesus didn’t exist it is just one more proof that the korant is made up.
While if Mohammed didn’t exist it has no effect on Christianity whatsoever.
Hank says
Ecosse1314
+100
Good comment
tim gallagher says
Good points, Ecosse1314. Everything about islam seems full of holes. Just a load of lying rubbish. Here’s hoping that a lot of Muslims do see this truth and pack up and leave Islam behind.
gravenimage says
Spot on, Ecosse.
Terry Gain says
Sabri
Two points. If Mohammed was truly God’s messenger what’s the point of wishing him peace? Surely, he is in heaven. Secondly, the evidence for Mohammed‘s existence doesn’t seem to be very substantial.
Michael Copeland says
Islam’s daily prayers that muslims recite include “Peace be to YOU, O Mohammed.”
Thus they pray directly to a dead man, something Islam considers blasphemy, but something which Mohammed instructed. David Wood explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9cvvzJoTeg
mortimer says
‘Mohammed’ is an honorific epithet bestowed on ILYAS IBN KABISHA, a Lakhmid Arab from Hira who led the Arab revolt against Persia and Rome. He was chosen by Abd al Malik to be the key figure in his new, imperial religion based in Damascus, so as to give legitimacy to the Umayyad Dynasty.
Mohammed is similar to Robin Hood, Beowulf or King Arthur, a legend created by popular culture.
Ecosse1314 says
Sabri…maybe just maybe you can tell us the sources that give us all these details of MoHamheads life. Are there any from before 850AD.
If not you are just proving Mr Spencers point.
gravenimage says
Sabri S. wrote:
This book will go where others choose not to…absolutely nowhere! The life of Muhammad, peace be upon him, and his companions is so well documented, we even know his personal habits and food preferences.
……………………………
All the references to Muhammed come from just three sources–the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira. There is no non-Muslim reference to Muhammed during his supposed lifetime or for centuries thereafter.
This is the usual Muslim circular thinking–you know the Qur’an is flawless because it was created by Allah–and you know it was created by Allah because the Qur’an says so…
As for “Did Muhammad Exist?”, this is already a major best seller. Is Sabri S. unaware of this, or does he just hope that we are?
Note that Sabri S. is unable to refute a single point that Robert Spencer makes–but then, pious Muslims do not believe in rational argument.
More:
And relying on a useful idiot like Noor, who can’t even visit her country or family, and who has never held a job, speaks volumes.
……………………………
In other words, we are supposed to laud a nation because it prevents a person from visiting who dares say anything against Jihad terror? Besides, how does this fit with Sabri S.’s claim that 9/11 was actually done by Jews? In that case, wouldn’t Saudi Arabia be fine with someone being against Jihad terror?
Again, no consistency here.
More:
Good try though infidels….maybe, you should ask if Jesus existed, given that you have no record of his life from the age of 13 to 30? You can blame the council of nicea in 325 for that, as that meeting was conducted by kaffirs such as yourselves. And while you are at it, destroy that picture of that Roman soldier you worship. Issa/Jesus was dark skinned and middle eastern (from Judea) – just like me!
……………………………
Note that Muslims always claim that they revere Jesus–then they sneer at his existing or else claim that he was the bastard child of a Roman soldier and a prostitute. (Bizarely, Sabri S. does both here). He has also claimed that Jesus is actually Cesare Borgia–which tnhrows the timeline off a bit. He has also never explained about Jesus being worshipped for 1500 years before this…
Then, he has claimed before that all those native to the Levant are black–but he has also sneered at and denigrated blacks. So is he saying that he is black? Is he saying that he hates himself? I doubt he will give a coherent explanation…
Ecosse1314 says
Very very good GI. That has rather destroyed Sabri and his nonsensical rantings
Trevor Morgan says
If you lie make it a big lie.
It works.
Islam is the proof of that.
Ade Fegan says
If muhammad existed he should be shunned as the devil by every man alive
If he didn’t exist the the koran should just be a museum piece
so we don’t forget how fucking stupid people can be
Francis says
The professional academics of the Inarah (enlightenment) Institute do go in the same direction but RS is an excellent synthesiser and publisher so I welcome future debate. My book ‘Did Muhammad Exist? A Counterblast to the REvisionists’ arguing for Muhammad’s existence is now finally available on KIndle.
Terry Gain says
Francis
Could you kindly post a link?
RonaldB says
Did Muhammad Exist? A Counterblast to the Revisionists: Why Robert Spencer, Inarah, Jay Smith and the ‘Sneakers Corner’ Are Wrong. Kindle Edition
by Francis Lankester PhD
gravenimage says
Thanks, Ronald. I have not read it, but you can find it here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Did-Muhammad-Exist-Counterblast-Revisionists-ebook/dp/B0984R64HN/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&qid=1625268230&refinements=p_27%3AFrancis+Lankester+PhD&s=books&sr=1-2
mortimer says
Francis is correct: Inarah is only one of a number of groups analyzing the historicity of early Islam and finding that early writings contradict the Sira and hadiths. Robert Spencer is popularizing the scholarly work of such groups researching this historicity issue.
RonaldB says
I saw Jay Smith debate a Muslim on the evidence that Perth was the original Mecca. Truthfully, the Muslim debater had by far the best case that the evidence for Perth was very weak.
gravenimage says
Do you mean Petra? I actually agree–there is no mention of Petra in *any* Islamic texts. But certainly, anyone has the right to make a case for this or any other theory.
RonaldB says
Thanks for the correction.
I will send you $50 if you can find anywhere where I said no one had the right to make a case that Petra was the original Mecca. By the way, the counter-case was not that Petra was not mentioned in Islamic sources. The counter-case showed that Jay Smith’s evidence that Petra had been an early focus of Islamic worship was very weak. If I weren’t so lazy, I would hunt down the YouTube link, assuming the debate is still on YouTube.
gravenimage says
I never said you said that no one had the right to question Islam–I just asserted that anyone has the right to do so. I assure you I wasn’t interested in placing a bet with you.
Michael Copeland says
“…. could it be that the past 1400 years were based on a mirage?”
It could.
It is basic Anglican church teaching that Islam is a false religion, and Mohammed a false prophet.
mortimer says
The current archbishop of Canterbury (Welby) is aware of Islamic teachings. However, some Anglicans have been duped by the dhimmi theology of ‘Abrahamic faiths’ fallacy. Rev. Mark Drurie (PhD) of Australia has written much on this fallacious dhimmi theology.
gravenimage says
Welby is not bad–but his predecessor, Rowan Williams, was an Islamophilic dhimmi tool.
Kashyap says
A community which indulges in brutality to impose their community is ultimate always pops up many rational questions, such a community can not find answers. Thus such communities uses inhuman methods to impose their perceived superiority. If the book brings out such factors sane people all over the world should respond in the appropriate manner. What is tragic is such communities are treated with “humane metric” while it has no meaning to “the community” .
mortimer says
Agree with Kahyap: Islam cannot answer questions about the justification for jihadic violence in the modern global village.
Michael Copeland says
“…offers no answers to the questions of modern life”. — Hamed Abdel-Samad
gravenimage says
Islam could not justify its violence in the past, either, and Muslims seldom tried.
Don Ameche says
Not in the form that muslims believe, no.
RonaldB says
Personally, I have no disagreement with Islam in Islamic countries. A lot of the Islamic extremism we see has its origins in the intervention by the US and US allies: Iran in 1953, the overthrow of the moderate government in Afghanistan by the Islamic fanatics sponsored by the US government, prior to the formation of the Taliban, the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in Iraq (Hussein was a secular dictator), the “Arab Spring” including the ascension of Morsi in Egypt, the overthrow and murder of Ghaddafi in Libya, and the support of the Yemeni slaughters by Saudi Arabia. I would also add the support of the CIA and other Western agencies of Al Qaeda in Syria to overthrow the Syrian government, a government that protected Christians and other non-Muslim sects.
As to the charge that Islam is inherently oppressive, there is a very funny video of Gamal Nassar making fun of the Muslim Brotherhoods advocacy of veils for women. In the Afghanistan of the 1960’s, Muslim girls attended school in miniskirts. I would not advocate importing Muslims into the US or Europe, but probably the worst doctrinaire Islamic threat comes from Wahabi Saudi Arabia, a “firm” US ally.
Did Muhammed exist? Do I care? It’s irrelevant. Islam is what it is, Muslims are by-and-large not going to change, the number of Muslims leaving Islam because of questions about Muhammed is vastly eclipsed by the number of converts to Islam. If Muslims are allowed to immigrate into a country, they will form powerful political identity groups. But, so will other non-Muslim nationalities. The solution: no immigration.
gravenimage says
RonaldB wrote:
Personally, I have no disagreement with Islam in Islamic countries.
………………………
Ronald, what do you consider “fine” about FGM, child rape, persecution of non-Muslims, stonings, and other horrors? (I am not saying that we should try to change Islam in Muslim countries–but neither am I fine with its savagery).
More:
A lot of the Islamic extremism we see has its origins in the intervention by the US and US allies…
………………………
Ronald, you are a long time reader and poster here–for at least ten years, if I recall correctly. *Surely* you don’t believe that the horrors of Islam are a reaction the modern west? How can you be unaware that Islam calls for violence against all Infidels who do not submit to Islam, and its mistreatment of women and religious minorities? Islam has been barbaric for 1400 years now–centures before the west even existed.
More:
As to the charge that Islam is inherently oppressive, there is a very funny video of Gamal Nassar making fun of the Muslim Brotherhoods advocacy of veils for women. In the Afghanistan of the 1960’s, Muslim girls attended school in miniskirts. I would not advocate importing Muslims into the US or Europe, but probably the worst doctrinaire Islamic threat comes from Wahabi Saudi Arabia, a “firm” US ally.
………………………
There was a brief period in the middle of the last century where a handful of Muslim leaders were interested in being modern. Pretending that this represents normative Islam–rather than being at least a partial *rejection* of Islam–is preposterous.
And Saudi Arabia is *not* a US ally–that some dhimmi tools believe it is does not make it so. Beheading people, persecuting non-Muslims, and being involved in Da’wa and Jihad terror–including 9/11–does nto make them an ally of the US or any other part of the civilized world.
More:
Did Muhammed exist? Do I care? It’s irrelevant. Islam is what it is, Muslims are by-and-large not going to change, the number of Muslims leaving Islam because of questions about Muhammed is vastly eclipsed by the number of converts to Islam. If Muslims are allowed to immigrate into a country, they will form powerful political identity groups. But, so will other non-Muslim nationalities. The solution: no immigration.
………………………
Islam teaches that no one has the right to question any aspect of Islam. Surely we have the right to do so, whether it affects Muslims one way or another?
And Muslims leaving Islam–at this point, at least–roughly balances RonaldB wrote:
Personally, I have no disagreement with Islam in Islamic countries.
………………………
Ronald, what do you consider “fine” about FGM, child rape, persecution of non-Muslims, stonings, and other horrors? (I am not saying that we should try to change Islam in Muslim countries–but neither am I fine with its savagery).
More:
A lot of the Islamic extremism we see has its origins in the intervention by the US and US allies…
………………………
Ronald, you are a long time reader and poster here–for at least ten years, if I recall correctly. *Surely* you don’t believe that the horrors of Islam are a reaction the modern west? How can you be unaware that Islam calls for violence against all Infidels who do not submit to Islam, and its mistreatment of women and religious minorities? Islam has been barbaric for 1400 years now–centures before the west even existed.
More:
As to the charge that Islam is inherently oppressive, there is a very funny video of Gamal Nassar making fun of the Muslim Brotherhoods advocacy of veils for women. In the Afghanistan of the 1960’s, Muslim girls attended school in miniskirts. I would not advocate importing Muslims into the US or Europe, but probably the worst doctrinaire Islamic threat comes from Wahabi Saudi Arabia, a “firm” US ally.
………………………
There was a brief period in the middle of the last century where a handful of Muslim leaders were interested in being modern. Pretending that this represents normative Islam–rather than at least a partial *rejection* of Islam–is preposterous.
And Saudi Arabia is *not* a US ally–that some dhimmi tools believe it is does not make it so. Beheading people, persecuting non-Muslims, and being involved in Da’wa and Jihad terror–including 9/11–does nto make them an ally of the US or any other part of the civilized world.
More:
Did Muhammed exist? Do I care? It’s irrelevant. Islam is what it is, Muslims are by-and-large not going to change, the number of Muslims leaving Islam because of questions about Muhammed is vastly eclipsed by the number of converts to Islam. If Muslims are allowed to immigrate into a country, they will form powerful political identity groups. But, so will other non-Muslim nationalities. The solution: no immigration.
………………………
Islam teaches that no one has the right to question any aspect of Islam. Surely we have the right to do so, whether it affects Muslims one way or another?
At this point at least, the number of Muslims leaving Islam is roughly the same as the number of converts to Islam.
Your point that Muslims do not belong in the west is correct, though. (although you do not say if you are fine with Islam why you would say this).
RonaldB says
Gravenimage:
I love debating with you.
“I have no disagreement with Islam in Islamic countries”.
Given a choice, I would probably not voluntarily become a citizen of any Islamic country. Or, even a country that had a majority of Muslims. But, there is a tremendous variation of circumstances in different Muslim countries. Albania, a Muslim country, was the only country in Europe that offered asylum to all Jews during World War II. And Albania was operating directly under the edicts of the head cleric there, who told them flat-out it was their duty as Muslims to help the Jews of Europe. Egypt, Iraq, Iran and Tunesia had sizeable Jewish populations prior to the conflicts associated with the creation of the Israeli state. Iran still has a protected and prosperous Jewish community. Iraq and Syria both gave protection to Christian minorities up until the US interferred with their governments. So, being an Islamic state is not necessarily associated with persecution of non-Muslims.
But, of course, if you read Robert Spencer’s History of Jihad, you’d read that some of the Islamic, jihadi Muslim states carried out horrific genocide aganst non-Muslims, particularly in India. My point is that Islam is a mixed bag. Do I want more Muslims in the US? No.
What about FGM, ie, female circumsion? I oppose it as barbaric and disgusting. Of course, I support male circumcision as modern, hygienic, scientific and the rightful heritage of male Muslim and Jewish babies.
I should hasten to add that I am circumcized. As far as I know, my sexual functioning has not been impaired. Of course, I’ll never be able to make the comparison. And lest you think I’m coming down on my parents, my parents were virtual saints for putting up with me. Anyone would be lucky to have such parents.
“You’ve been a long-time reader here.” That doesn’t chisel my position in stone. I’ve read Robert Spencer’s “History of Jihad” several times, so I’m familiar with the horrific killing associated with jihad expansion. But, there have been different Muslims civilizations: some have been civilized and some have not. Moses Maimonades fled to the Muslim Middle East rather than Christian Europe when he fled the radical Muslim sect that took over the Spanish government.
Saudi Arabia as an ally of the US. You and I have pretty much the same view of Saudi Arabia. It is undeniable, though, that Saudi Arabia is treated by the US as an ally. We sell them military hardware, give them military support, and allow them to invest heavily in US educational institutions. Saudi Arabia virtually financed Desert Storm in 1992, although not the Iraqi idiot invasion of 2003.
“Your point that Muslims do not belong in the west is correct, though. (although you do not say if you are fine with Islam why you would say this”
Hey!!! I said I was fine with Islam in Islamic countries. This does not mean I support FGM or the murder of apostates or the suppression of Hinduism or Zoroasterism or paganism (Islam specifically tolerates Judaism and Christianity by doctrine, if not always in practice). It means, I would have no intention of interfering with what other countries, specifically Islamic countries, do.
Let me summarize my position. It is far more dangerous to intervene in the governments of other countries than it is to maintain a lassez-faire attitude towards Islam in other countries.
gravenimage says
RonaldB wrote:
Gravenimage:
I love debating with you.
………………………
Same here, Ronald.
More:
“I have no disagreement with Islam in Islamic countries”.
Given a choice, I would probably not voluntarily become a citizen of any Islamic country. Or, even a country that had a majority of Muslims. But, there is a tremendous variation of circumstances in different Muslim countries. Albania, a Muslim country, was the only country in Europe that offered asylum to all Jews during World War II. And Albania was operating directly under the edicts of the head cleric there, who told them flat-out it was their duty as Muslims to help the Jews of Europe. Egypt, Iraq, Iran and Tunesia had sizeable Jewish populations prior to the conflicts associated with the creation of the Israeli state. Iran still has a protected and prosperous Jewish community. Iraq and Syria both gave protection to Christian minorities up until the US interferred with their governments. So, being an Islamic state is not necessarily associated with persecution of non-Muslims.
………………………
Ronald, there were indeed about 2000 Jews who did flee to Albania during the Holocaust. But the idea that Albania offered asylum to all Jews is mistaken–in fact, most of the Jews of Kosovo were sent to concentration camps–including those in Albania itself–and fewer than half survived the war.
And many Muslim Albanians pointed out Jews to the Germans. In addition, this was a center of Muslim recruits to the SS.
That some Muslims flauted the savage antisemitism of their creed is indeed praiseworthy, especially during the Hoilocaust. But many more did not, and this does not change the hatred of Jews in Islam itself. As ex-Muslim Bosch Fawstin–himself of Albanian background–says, some people are just better than their religion.
Then, pointing out nations that robbed and expelled their Jewish populations in 1948 as supposed models of equitable treatment of Jews is just bizarre. If you read Bat Ye’or, a Jewish woman born in Egypt, you can see how persecuted most Jewish dhimmis were in Muslim countries.
And pointing out Iran as “protecting” its Jewish population is deeply concerning–at times Jews in Iran have not even been allowed to leave the country. And they are terrified to say anything positive about Israel, which Iran wants to destroy. This is not actually a good thing.
Then, Syria, while it has not been engaged in out and out genocide, has been violent and persecuted its Christian population. To say this never happened before the current conflict there is mistaken.
Overall, saying that you are fine with Islam because some Muslims have been less observant than others is like saying you are fine with Fascism because some Nazis were worse than others.
More:
But, of course, if you read Robert Spencer’s History of Jihad, you’d read that some of the Islamic, jihadi Muslim states carried out horrific genocide aganst non-Muslims, particularly in India. My point is that Islam is a mixed bag. Do I want more Muslims in the US? No.
………………………
Yes–Islam’s history of horrors *much* predates the existance of the US. And when was the US in India?
More:
What about FGM, ie, female circumsion? I oppose it as barbaric and disgusting. Of course, I support male circumcision as modern, hygienic, scientific and the rightful heritage of male Muslim and Jewish babies.
I should hasten to add that I am circumcized. As far as I know, my sexual functioning has not been impaired. Of course, I’ll never be able to make the comparison. And lest you think I’m coming down on my parents, my parents were virtual saints for putting up with me. Anyone would be lucky to have such parents.
………………………
There are mixed views about male circumcision–but it was never intended to impair sexual functioning. That is, indeed, the entire purpose of female genital mutilation.
More:
“You’ve been a long-time reader here.” That doesn’t chisel my position in stone. I’ve read Robert Spencer’s “History of Jihad” several times, so I’m familiar with the horrific killing associated with jihad expansion. But, there have been different Muslims civilizations: some have been civilized and some have not. Moses Maimonades fled to the Muslim Middle East rather than Christian Europe when he fled the radical Muslim sect that took over the Spanish government.
………………………
Ronald–with all respect–I’m not sure what you could have read here that would lead you to believe that Islam is fine.
And Maimonides actually noted how violent and antisemitic Islam is.
More:
Saudi Arabia as an ally of the US. You and I have pretty much the same view of Saudi Arabia. It is undeniable, though, that Saudi Arabia is treated by the US as an ally. We sell them military hardware, give them military support, and allow them to invest heavily in US educational institutions. Saudi Arabia virtually financed Desert Storm in 1992, although not the Iraqi idiot invasion of 2003.
………………………
Yes–this is utter madness. And all the more so when evidence of the Saudis involvement in 9/11 emerged. That some in the US and the rest of the west are in denial about Saudi Arabia does not make them our allies.
More:
“Your point that Muslims do not belong in the west is correct, though. (although you do not say if you are fine with Islam why you would say this”
Hey!!! I said I was fine with Islam in Islamic countries. This does not mean I support FGM or the murder of apostates or the suppression of Hinduism or Zoroasterism or paganism (Islam specifically tolerates Judaism and Christianity by doctrine, if not always in practice). It means, I would have no intention of interfering with what other countries, specifically Islamic countries, do.
Let me summarize my position. It is far more dangerous to intervene in the governments of other countries than it is to maintain a lassez-faire attitude towards Islam in other countries.
………………………
Muslims do indeed abuse non-Muslims in the nations they have conquered. And note that the “tolerance” of Judaism and Christianity encompasses persecution, Jizya, kidnapping, rape, forced marriage, and random mass murder. All it does is stop short of genocide–and not even that in the case of Jews.
I do agree that Muslim lands cannot be civilized, though–as George Bush vainly tried in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have long said that we were largely safe when Islam was kept isolated–and we should return to that policy as much as possible. You and I agree here.
Hank says
Looking at the rear mirror, the interventions you mentioned took the lid off and opened the Islamic “Pandoras Box”. I don’t think the US and its allies fully understood the nature of Islam and what they were getting into (still don’t). Probably the last nation to understand the nature of Islam was Spain when they expelled it a few centuries ago.
Many great nations are a result of migration. Some examples are the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. It’s the nature of Islam that is the problem. It kills the host in the end. The solution: no Islamic migration jihad
RonaldB says
My point is that the US ultimately experiences blowback when it intervenes in foreign affairs other than circumstances in which there is a direct military threat. One example is when the CIA engineered a coup against the constitutional, secular Iranian government in 1953 and installed the Shah as head of government. The US enjoyed the support of the Shah during much of the cold war, but the government of the Shah led directly to the Islamist regime that is now a sworn enemy of the US.
As far as migration, do you want millions of non-Islamic, impoverished, low-skill, low-IQ, illiterate immigrants from isolated Indian villages in Central and South America to immigrate into the US? They will be cross-generational Democrat voters, which is why the Biden administration has opened the borders.
As far as European immigrants to the land masses of US, Canada, and Australia before they were countries: it’s true, we did conquest. Having done so, we now commit many resources to the benefit of the indigenous populations of the time. They may be genetically unsuited to prosper in a technological society. We now know that some peoples are unsuited to live in our type of society and we have the means to keep them out if we so choose. It’s not simply the Muslims that need to be kept out.
gravenimage says
Actually, many Hindus and Sikhs have become productive and patriotic American citizens. Muslims, not so much…
As for the idea that Jihad is “blowback”, keep in mind that Muslims are as barbaric in nations that have never had a presence in Islamic nations as they are in those that have.
The fact is that Islam has preached the conquest of Infidels since the beginning–it has never prefaced that by saying ‘only those that as RonaldB sees it deserve blowback’.
RonaldB says
By “blowback” I don’t mean we deserve to have our country destroyed or damaged. By “blowback” I mean the foreseeable consequences of maintaining an intrusive presence in countries, such as Afghanistan or Iraq, that don’t want us there. The blowback is the death and maiming of large numbers of US soldiers who are stationed there, and the absolute destruction of US foreign policy for that region. The blowback of our intrusion into Libya is the migration of millions of Muslim and non-Muslim refugees into Europe (and now, into the US). We lost 5,000 US solders as blowback in Iraq.
By the way, I would not allow more Sikhs or Hindus into the country. I have known many very fine Indian immigrants. A few are fine; many of them are not. They vote Democrat and they engage in identity politics. Even if all the Chinese and Indians we import are high-IQ, we are importing an overclass which we don’t need.
gravenimage says
Yes, Muslims consider being offered a chance to set up civilized democracies “intrusive”.
This idea that Libyans need to be allowed into the west is very odd. Allowing this is suicidal insanity; the idea that this is inevitable if we have tried to fight terrorism there is mistaken. The fact is that Muslims are pouring into the west, including from meany places that have never had an American or other western presence.
Then, I’m not sure what rights you believe that Hindus, Sikhs, and Chinese have been granted that others do not have.
Kashyap says
Not in agreement. There is something amiss with the mind set of “the community”
hammar says
mohammed was no prophet. allah is no god. These nomads are sick as ever.